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 Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes

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Travis Dimler
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PostSubject: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Mon 11 Nov - 7:22

I am preparing to cool my snakes down for winter and have a pair of ammodytes which I will be brumating.  I have not kept this genus before and was wondering if someone could share their practical experience.  The bulk of my collection is montane rattlesnakes ( mostly lepidus ) so I don't hesitate to get them quite cold.  The room regularly dips to 40F in the winter. Is this too cold for ammodytes?  

Thanks!

Travis
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Sigurd Wackstrom
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Mon 11 Nov - 18:09

I would not consider myself a ammodytes expert, but 40F is not too cold. I have brumated a male for a few years now at temperatures of 40-50F.
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Mon 11 Nov - 22:04

Hello Travis,

V. ammodytes, no matter from what area, will have no problem if you hibernate them at the same temp. as C. lepidus. I hibernate my V. ammod. at 40-50°F, depending on outside temp. as the room they are in may get a bit warmer or cooler in extremely warm or cold periods. I only prevent the room from freezing, anything between 0°C (32°F) and 10-12°C(50-54°F) is ok and has brought successful breeding over many years.
I never dared to hibernate my C. lepidus and other montane rattlers at the lowest temp. that I would regard as fitting for V.ammod.
I could compare habitats and climate at many locations of C. lep. in the USA, including klauberi  and V. ammod (all subspecies) and I can say that the northern V. ammod. and those from the continental part of southern Europe have much colder and longer winters than any of the C. lep. populations.

If your V.ammod. are from coastal areas in south-eastern Europe (Croatia-Dalmatia, coastal Montenegro or lake Skutari or coastal Greece), you can compare the climate (and in a big extent also their habitat) with the one, C. lep. have in the area between Del Rio and Sanderson in Texas.

I think this information may help you for your decision.

Best regards,
Rainer
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Travis Dimler
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Sat 16 Nov - 9:47

Thanks for the excellent info Rainer.  As for C. lepidus, there is no danger in hibernating them at very cold temps.  Through all of their Texas range, the winters experience plenty of sub-freezing weather.  I had temps well below 40°F last winter in my snake room with no difficulty.  My ammodytes are Ada Bojana, Montenegro.

Travis
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Tue 19 Nov - 4:37

Hello Travis,

Ada Bojana is the place with the mildest winters in coastal Montenegro. The climate is comparable to the climate, especially temperature, C. lep. have near Del Rio / TX.
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Liang Guo
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Sat 21 Dec - 11:27

How big can they mate? Is 50cm enough?
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Peter van Issem
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Sat 21 Dec - 16:34

@ Lian Guo:

It depend on the local Form,

the ,,dwarf´´ form from the Cyclades starts from 25-30 cm for a succesfull mating, others are bigger.
I breed not before they are three years old. Than they are around 50cm, or bigger, when they feed a lot. In nature the males are mature with around 40-50 cm. But I prefere to start with snakes they are not under 60 cm. The females has enought time to grow up and there will be no reason to breed to early. For the Cyclades ones around 35-40 cm. But in our terrarians they grow up bigger than in nature. Depends on the very good food and feeding with mices.

e.g. My ,,Skutari´´ ammodytes are over 80 cm, start breeding with them when they was 5 years.

I observed that females that starts breeding before they are full grown, stops growing sometimes!
I like big ammodytes, so in my case I let them grow and breed later.

use them only every 2nd year for breeding, than the females has one year off and can regenerate very good!

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Liang Guo
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Sun 22 Dec - 14:47

To Peter:
Thank you! That sounds like some scorpions,stops growing when breeding.
My long nosed vipers are Greek,I will upload their photos after a few days.
BTW,The smell they released is very very potent like a weasel hhaha
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Liang Guo
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Mon 23 Dec - 0:32

Peter van Issem wrote:
@ Lian Guo:

It depend on the local Form,

.............


Do rattlesnakes have the some situation -- stop growing after first breeding?
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Peter van Issem
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Mon 23 Dec - 1:28

Hi Liang,

first, you aske only for ,,Rattlesnakes'' , I don't know if this also oberved by the genus Crotalus s.l. or in Sistrurus too! I have not keped a lot of species of this two groups and not over a long time to answer you in this case.
But, it will be better to  specify wich one you mean!
Your questions are very generally.
A question to an specific species will bring more or better results.

But - in generally. Why not.
In the Vipera s.str. in know it from ammodytes, aspis and latastei.
In the Montivipera group from ,,albizona'' and wagneri.

But not all specimens shows this! Some yes, some not. I don't know the reason of this.


Last edited by Peter van Issem on Mon 23 Dec - 13:39; edited 1 time in total
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Liang Guo
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Mon 23 Dec - 6:14

Hello Peter,
Sorry my words were not clear.I thought that's a common feature of all Genus:)
I meant Crotalus ruber specifically.
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Peter van Issem
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PostSubject: Re: Brumating Vipera ammodytes ammodytes   Mon 23 Dec - 7:34

No matter Liang,

it's only why Crotalus is a wide distributed genus, and it differs a lot from species to species. Some of them have complete other ecological adaptions. But this is in nearly All genera of snakes with a wide Distribution or species that lives in Low or high altitudes.
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