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 Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?

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Sascha Steinhoff
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PostSubject: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Wed 23 Oct - 6:58

hi guys,

i would like to know if all species of the genus tachymenis and thamnodynastes are venomous. tachymenis peruviana is definitely venomous, same applies to thamnodynastes strigatus. i just wonders if that applies to the rest as well. just need to know if the snakes have a venom gland or not. it does not matter, if they pose a potential threat to humans.

thanks,

sascha
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Fabian Dirks
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Thu 24 Oct - 19:14

under your circumstances, yes !
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Sascha Steinhoff
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Thu 24 Oct - 19:34

hi fabian,
i used your website for research many times, but since it's offline, it's sometimes hard to find out stuff about rear fanged snakes.

it is unfortunately not possible, that a snake has a venom gland under circumstances Smile either it has a venom gland, or it has no venom gland. do you know, if all species of the genus tachymenis and thamnodynastes have a venom gland? that would be a big help for my current project, the snake database.


thanks,
sascha
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Fabian Dirks
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Thu 24 Oct - 20:47

Quote :
it is unfortunately not possible, that a snake has a venom gland under circumstances
But if you call it venomous or not ...
Pretty much colubrids have evolved glands some not. It is moreover a lack of defintion when we call a snake venomous ...
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Fri 25 Oct - 2:04

the question how to define a "venomous" snakes would definitely deserve an own thread, but that's not what i've been asking for.

so another try: has anybody an idea if all snakes of tachymenis and thamnodynastes

a) have venom glands and
b) have specialized venom fangs (either hollow or carved)

right now i can confirm this only for tachymenis peruviana and thamnodynastes strigatus. if i have wrong information, please point me into the right direction.
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Fri 25 Oct - 3:08

A venom gland do not evolve *puff here I am* , or do you think it only evolved at a single species within a genus ..., like I said ... there are pretty much colubrids who have glands , and some who have none like Cornsnakes , Kingsnakes e.g.

Some call it venom gland, some call it Duvernoysche Gland ... it is pretty much a definition ...

Fangs:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rear-fanged/4693030242/

Tachymenis has enlarged, recurved posterior maxillary fangs but although this genus has a lack of informations. The reported fatal bite could be a mistake .... Normally that genus cause mild to moderate effects.
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Fri 25 Oct - 4:07

from your answer i guess, that you want to say that all snakes of the genus tachymenis have both venom glands and venom fangs. is that correct?

does the same apply to thamnodynastes? i know already that there are thamnodynastes species that have both venom glands and venom fangs. but does this apply to the whole genus?

i am sorry for nailing you down, but it's for a database about snakes. a data field in a database can in this case have pretty much three conditions:

1) yes
2) no
3) unknown

everything is set to "unknown" by default. i am happy about any valid information that helps me to replace the "unknown" fields with either "yes" or "no". i cannot post links as a new member, but googling "snake database LD50" will lead you directly to the website.
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Sun 3 Nov - 2:24

hi guys,

now i can - hopefully - post links to show you today what it's all about:

http://snakedatabase.org/pages/venom-taxonomy.php

this is a taxonomy overview of snake species, color coding shows the difference between the venomous and the non-venomous snakes. every snake that has a venom gland is classified as venomous. this visualizes some basic informationen, that you usually have to dig out with some effort from various resources. now it's accessible for everybody.

it was and is still a big problem for me to get valid data to feed the database. the questions i asked e.g. in my very first post still remain unanswered. if anybody can give me clear feedback about this or other species that are not properly classified yet, i would be happy. until further notice i will only categorize this two species tachymenis peruviana and thamnodynastes strigatus as venomous.
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Sun 3 Nov - 3:46

It is not that clear answer ... anyway , but for you : Colorize the species you asked for


Quote :
every snake that has a venom gland is classified as venomous.
And that is what I said ... but again ... a lot of colubrids have glands , some not like ratsnakes e.g.

for your database it means you can colorize almost all and leave a bit black Smile

And you missed some important species
Ahaetulla
Chrysopelea

for example

If I have more time I will have a closer look

If you read " Venomous Bites from Non-Venomous Snakes A Critical Analysis of Risk and Management of “Colubrid” Snake Bites " there are still questionsmarks behind many well known species...
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Sun 3 Nov - 4:08

And if you claim a species venomous you should say that it may not harm people ... if authorities read that it may lead to trouble for people ...

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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Sun 3 Nov - 22:36

hi fabian,

thanks for the input! i double checked your info regarding Ahaetulla and Chrysopelea and now changed the according ata records of all species of these genus'.

the Tachymenis and Thamnodynastes species discussed have updated their data records long time ago. the question how to deal with the whole genus remains open. the advice given here leaves some room for misinterpretation.

regarding authorities and the labeling as venomous:
we collect facts about snakes in this database. a snake that has a working venom gland is venomous. that's a fact and everything else is well-intentioned propaganda :)some don't like this classification and then we have the absurd situation that people are bitten by so called non-venomous snakes that can in fact lead to serious envenomination.

the title of the book mentioned reflects this absurd situation quite well. i tried to get it in some libraries, but so far i had no success. i am happy about more feedback, if possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Sun 3 Nov - 23:59

Quote :
a snake that has a working venom gland is venomous. that's a fact and everything else is well-intentioned propaganda
You can claim all snakes venomous which have a gland, thats true ... but where is the benefit ?
I asked myself 1000 times that question but it is more essential if a snake is capable to trigger an envenomation ... and even in that point papers are not that clear.
Although the different fangs anatomy is an important point ...

Dont forget pythons to be venomous
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Mon 4 Nov - 3:13

didn't know that pythons have venom glands! is it another discovery by brian fry? would be happy to get more information what species or probably genus are affected. right now the whole superfamily Pythonoidea is deep blue. wouldn't mind to make some red or pink if there is reliable data available.

i am working on the fang-section. this is the next thing upcoming.
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PostSubject: Re: Tachymenis & Thamnodynastes spp. -> all venomous?   Mon 4 Nov - 3:47

just found that all species of these genus' all have venom glands as well:

- Clelia
- Boiruna
- Ithycyphus
- Mimophis
- Balanophis

it's already in the database.
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