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 My vipera ammodytes

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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: My vipera ammodytes   Sat 1 Jun - 6:11

Got 3 of them about 1 month ago Very Happy the one female was sent to me gravid. Here are some pictures of them. Smile


Female Vipera ammodytes ammodytes

Female vipera ammodytes (Gravid)

Male vipera ammodytes ammodytes


Last edited by Kiril Vulkanov on Sat 1 Jun - 6:26; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Forgot to type the main info.)
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Peter van Issem
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sat 1 Jun - 14:04

Kiril,

nice looking ammodytes. Did you have some more information about there origin? This are bulgarian V.a. ammodytes? The male on the first pic looks very nice, the female on the 2nd too.
Hope to see some offspring pictures, when they have give birth.
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sat 1 Jun - 16:18

Hello Kiril,

if I look at the photos, I would say that the "female" on the first photo is a male and the female on the second photo does not look like she might be gravid on thispicture.

Can you take and post photos of the (gravid) female and the male on the bottom photo that show the rear part of their bodies and the tails (maybe from below)? Then I might tell you more about their sex and maybe also tell you with more accuracy whether she may be gravid or not.

Do you know the origin of these animals?

Best regards,
Rainer
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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sat 1 Jun - 18:31

Hello to all,
i am pretty sure its a male! i have tested it from the bottom of the tail.
The female is 100% pregnant.. when i probed her she had some huge lumps in her body.
And no. Those arent from bulgaria, they are an import from Chexia.
Really calm and good loking . Razz
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sat 1 Jun - 19:29

Quote :
i am pretty sure its a male!

That one from the last picture? May be - cannot tell it - no tail visible.

The specimen from picture 1 is a male - I'm pretty sure.

Well, and the pregant female does not look like a pregant female - hard to believe...

regards
Peter

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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sat 1 Jun - 21:07

Well maybe i've messed up the pictures LOL Very Happy the one female and the male are pretty simular one annother.. hard not to mistake them on a picture.. but the female in the middle is 100% gravid, mated about 1 month ago and is now really fat. Now im waiting for the 2nd female to mate.
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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sun 2 Jun - 22:00

Hi to all.. ive been having some trouble sexing these.. and many people have argued with me about the gender.. so if you can tell what gender they are, go ahead! but im pretty sure the 2nd one is female.
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sun 2 Jun - 22:36

Quote :
but im pretty sure the 2nd one is female.

you should....if you're sure she's 100% gravid....

for further help or further opinions you should take pictures the way Rainer suggested.

regards
Peter

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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sun 2 Jun - 23:16

Here are some pictures i just made.. hope they help!
http://www.album.bg/kiril55/?upload_done=7
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sun 2 Jun - 23:44

just my opinions:
supposed male - yes
supposed female - no
pregnant female - female yes, pregnancy doubtful.

regards
Peter

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Peter van Issem
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sun 2 Jun - 23:49

Yes, not the best pic´s but you can see it very clear. The 2nd pic ,,supposed female´´ is a 100%
male! No doubt!

You import them from CZ I think, but what are the oringin of this ammodytes? Did you have get anny location datas from the parents of this snakes?
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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Sun 2 Jun - 23:57

No i didnt.. its sold to me in BG but on the socuments it says that its from CZ..
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Mon 3 Jun - 3:14

Hello Kiril,

there are no V. ammodytes in Cz except those in captivity or specimens that escaped or were set free.

If I look at the link you gave us, I say the "supposed female" on the bottom-photo is the male on the first photo you posted on Venomland.

The "pregnant" female is a female but I agree with Peter Zürcher and would even say she does not look gravid at all. Maybe she is but she is not well-nourished and it isn´t visible yet though after a month after mating she should look different. You´ll see.

To which one of the animals does the tail of the "supposed female" on the photo (top-right in that link) belong? That is a male´s tail and the snake on the bottom of the photo is a male.

Is it possible that you got cheated by that guy?
Don´t care, even if the female is not gravid you can feed her well and breed her next year. To me she looks like she had babies last year and V. ammodytes only breed every other year unless you feed them very well, which obviously has not been done with this female.

Anyway, I wish you much luck with the animals,

Rainer
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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Mon 3 Jun - 4:06

Well on the document it says that they have been imported in 2011, i got them by a guy in bulgaria about a month and a half ago.. and he said that the one female has mated since.. when she came i saw that she is quite fat compered to the other.. and i thought as he said - that she is gravid.. maybe he copied the documents and sold me a wild caught trio, however the Documents have been accepted by the bulgarian RIOSV and CITES, they havent eaten since i got them.. does anyone know how i can find out if they are wildcaught?
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Tue 4 Jun - 22:03

Hello Kiril,

if any of the animals has scars you can assume that it is a wc specimen. If you want to be more sure you can test the snakes for parasites. If they have any that need an alternate host, you can be sure they are wc. But a negative result with this method does not mean that they are not wc, they may have been treated successfully for parasites.

As you have them legally, you don´t have to care too much about that now. There are only few V. ammod. that are used

My concern would rather be why they didn´t eat yet. Females usually eat like vacuum cleaners in the first third or even half of their pregnancy. And the males should have finished their mating season and have started to eat too. Late spring and early summer is the main time for feeding in adult V. ammodytes.

How do you keep them (temperature, space, humidity)? What did you offer them?
Maybe we can find out why they don´t eat and get them to eat normally.

Rainer
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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Wed 5 Jun - 1:22

Well they have been in hybernation the whole winter i was told.. from 6 to 8 degrees. i offered them dead mice but none had interest it in. And i wondered if they dont eat because they can be wildcaught and arent used to mice, well some of them had some white spots on them that could easily be washed away witth water but they are in perfect conditions i guess, they are not agressive at all.. the one male is faster tho.. makes the deffencive pose but doesnt attack.. i've free handled about 2 of them i think.. no agression at all.. i keep them in about 30% humidity.. on sand at the moment.. temo is about 25-30C and the terrarium is 70x50x30 (lenght/hight/deep).
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Alex Forzudo
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Wed 5 Jun - 2:38

Hello Kiril,
Try live mice if they refuse dead or defrozen ones. If it doesn't work try smaller sizes.
About temperature be sure that they can find colder areas of 22-24° and leave higher temperatures only in the hot spot.

Kiril Vulkanov wrote:
.. i've free handled about 2 of them i think..

Why? There's no reason in my opinion, even so, if they refuse food handling them is just a way to add them more stress.

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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Wed 5 Jun - 3:14

Well this was once when i unpacked them.. my hooks were in the other side of the room.. and they headed straight under my bed.. so i had to ctatch them by the tail, and then realised that they are really docile and that wouldnt even bite if i poked it in my eye Very Happy and if they dont eat mice what soulh i do? rub the mice into a frog or so?
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Wed 5 Jun - 17:49

Hello Kiril,

as Alex writes, it will be good to have a cool part in the terrarium but also a really warm (35-40°) one at the warmest spot. For V. ammod. the optimum way of heating is by heat radiation provided by a lamp.
If they can reach their optimum temperature quickly when the light goes on and keep it by moving closer to the spot or further away from it, they should start to eat if they are healthy.

Did you offer them live mice? If they are not used to dead prey, they will probably react to movements and as soon as they will have bitten the mouse probably eat it.
Scenting the mouse with a frog will probably not help, there are few V. ammod. that eat frogs as adults. Scenting mice with a bird or offering a bird may bring more success, especially if they should be wc. You can also try different kinds of mice (Mastomys, Microtus,...) or young rats.

Freehandling: Maybe you were lucky, if you get into striking distance and they want to bite you, they will get you. I know a number of freehandlers. When they were in my house and I asked them whether they would do so with some of my snakes (vipers and pitvipers) they said they wouldn´t because it would be too dangerous.

Good luck,
Rainer
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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Thu 6 Jun - 0:59

Well mine are still prety docile.. i men on the pics i grabbed them by the tail without holding theit head with a hook or aomething - no i havent fed them live mice yet, im getting some tomorrow... ill try with 3 small newborn mice if it doesnt work ill raise the temperature in the terrarium.
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Thu 6 Jun - 5:40

Try and offer mice that really move, small adults or somewhat smaller, not newborn ones. Movement of the mice usually triggers striking and after that they eat.

"Well mine are still prety docile" - They are not predictable, especially if you have little or no experience with them.
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Kiril Vulkanov
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Thu 6 Jun - 7:25

Eh, i have about 3 year experience with vipers's.. i know their behavior.. but yes i agree sometimes they can be more than unpredictable.
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Thu 6 Jun - 11:22

Kiril Vulkanov wrote:
Eh, i have about 3 year experience with vipers's.. i know their behavior.. but yes i agree sometimes they can be more than unpredictable.

Yeah right... But I guess better ammodytes than durissus.
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Thu 6 Jun - 14:41

@ Martin:

"..But I guess better ammodytes than durissus." - You are right but don´t underestimate the effect of a bite by V. ammodytes. It is at least unpleasant but may be much more.

@ Kiril:

"They are not predictable, especially if you have little or no experience with them." - That was not meant as an offence.
I have been working with vipers, especially V. ammodytes for over 40 years now and have been handling thousands of them in the wild and in my house. I have been engaged especially in their ecology and behaviour and still would not say that I have enough experience to be able to predict all of their reactions. I would not say that I cannot get bitten because I know them so well that I will not make a mistake in handling.
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PostSubject: Re: My vipera ammodytes   Thu 6 Jun - 15:55

Rainer Fesser wrote:
@ Martin:

"..But I guess better ammodytes than durissus." - You are right but don´t underestimate the effect of a bite by V. ammodytes. It is at least unpleasant but may be much more.

Yes I know but at least we have antivenom for them and supposedly the doctors at the hospital know how to treat us in case of a bite.
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