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 Leptodeira annulata

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Michael Burger
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PostSubject: Leptodeira annulata    Sat 11 Feb - 7:48

Some pics of Annulated cat eyed or "night" snakes (Leptodeira annulata sp). Easily one of the most commonly encountered snakes in Latin America, the annulata group is both morphologically and behaviorally distinct depending upon where one encounters them. The top two pics are of a snake (Leptodeira a. annulata) that was imported from Suriname (the 3rd pic is a CB hatchling) - they are very handleable, have laterally compressed bodies, have slightly more pronounced vertebral scales, and are considered semiarboreal in habits. The bottom pic is of a male (Leptodeira a. rhombifera) imported from either Honduras or Guatemala - this snake (and another I have) is absolutely unhandleable, has a rounded body without enlarged vertebral scales, and is generally more terrestrial in habits. It was extremely difficult to get a pic of this particular snake as it went completely 'ballistic' when I removed it from its enclosure. The bananas are from Ecuador.

Michael

[img][/img]

Leptodeira annulata annulata (Amazonian morph/subspecies) Pics #1 & #2

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Leptodeira a. annulata (hatchling Amazonian morph/subspecies) (below)

[img][/img]

Leptodeira annulata rhombifera (Central American morph/subspecies) (below)

[img][/img]
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Arjan Huitsing
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Wed 15 Feb - 20:49

Very nice looking snakes!
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Tue 27 Mar - 3:13

Nice cat-eyeds! I didn't know anyone else kept any of these... haha. I've had 2.2 (1.1 of which I've had for 3-4 years). Strange that a couple of yours are not handleable, as my 2.2 are very calm and the one's I've run into (Leptodiera) in Peru, Belize, and Costa Rica have all been extremely relaxed.

Did you hatch the neonate out yourself?
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Michael Burger
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Tue 27 Mar - 4:47

Yeah, the septentrionalis that I've encountered now and then in Costa Rica were very much like the Amazonian annulata - very handleable and very attenuate in body form. I've never had the chance to handle any other species of Leptodeira. The baby is one of four that I've hatched from 2 captive reproductions w/the Amazonian annulata. I still have to find one here in Texas- I understand they are not reallly all that difficult to find provided you know where to look........

Michael
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Chris Carille
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Tue 27 Mar - 4:54

Wow! Impressive Michael! How'd you get them to reproduce in captivity? I really haven't had any luck figuring it out yet and was going to try introducing frog eggs into the cage to simulate seasonality change
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Tue 27 Mar - 4:57

very nice Leptodeira, we have a pair of this species but we feed them with pinkies (assited)
I was wondering with what do you feed yours and how do you keep them??

thanks in advance

regards
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Michael Burger
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PostSubject: Leptodeira   Tue 27 Mar - 7:26

Quite honestly, I bred the Leptodeira by cooling them down and then introduced the female to the male.

As for feeding, most Leptodeira that I am familiar with are frog feeders in the wild (one exception is the mangrove occuring species in Costa Rica that I believe feeds on crabs). Many can be 'switched over' by scenting a dead pink with a frog. I have only had luck with this method with half grown to adult animals - babies that I have had were pretty stubborn and would only take small frogs. I keep them on a cypress mulch substrate with a large water bowl and a piece of bark to hide under. Temperatures average around 25-28 C. I mist the cages a couple of times a week.

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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Tue 27 Mar - 15:21

I,ve collected these in Dutch Guiana , Suriname, the Leptodeira sp. Micheal they seem to get quite large in Suriname and are classified as a bushmaster mimic.

They are a little bit funny to the trappers as they inflate theyre necks when aggitated. i believe theyre might be more than one species of this interesting colubridae even in Suriname ?.
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Wed 28 Mar - 2:23

You know Peter... in this case your red mark ill consider constructive ..tell you why, Dean Ripa had contacted me because he was writing an article on Bushmasters and ask me if i rembered the name of the snake they considered a mimic of this species he and myself have spent a lot of time with Theo Henzen in Suriname .

So which specimen do you consider a Bushmaster mimic specifically in Suriname.

Thanks in advance because this question was left open by me to Dean as this was the only one specimen i could think of.
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PostSubject: Leptodeira or Lachesis?   Wed 28 Mar - 21:50

Not to stray too far from the Leptodeira subject, but I believe that either a Waglerophis or Xenodon species might be more of a bushmaster mimic than a Leptodeira. I've never seen a cat eyed snake inflate its neck, but Waglerophis does quite readily. Cat eyed snakes tend to be somewhat more slender than Lachesis. Just my two cents......many Waglerophis have banded patterns...here are couple of pics of a darker specimen...

[img][/img]

[img][/img]

My humble opinion.......
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Wed 28 Mar - 22:26

That's a great one professor, Campbell and Lamar volume two Venomous Reptiles of the Western Hemisphere specifically name this rear fanged colubridae phylum as being a venomous snake mimic.

Micheal do you really think were straying from the subject mentioning the Leptodeira group as a venomous snake mimic or adding to the knowlege about them.

Personally i think we should not insult the intelligence of the forum readers and keep it so structured, id even accept skull morphology in the rearfanged Leptodeira group as an interesting addt'l information , we only seem to get into details with the more well known species that are not so dramatic .

That's a great one ive seen very large specimens of this group Xenodon in Southern Brazil.

Thank's for your input , you reminded me of something i must have not learned so well.
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Wed 28 Mar - 23:45

Leptodeira annulata ill consider a young Lachesis muta muta mimic on account of the keeled scales , dorsal black diamond /rhomboid pattern and brown back ground.

Xenodon i dont remember specifically this specimen in Suriname , i remember Xenodon werneri from French Guiana this one seems to mimic Bothriopsis bilineata.

In Brazil Xendon's are killed for their likeness to Bothrops Jararaca, if this snake occurs in Suriname, i think it would be more a Bothrops atrox mimic.

The species i was confuse with was actually a Pseustes sp. they inflate theyre neck like the Black and Yellow Amazonian Ratsnakes. The thought of Lachesis muta muta size threw me off but remember Bushmasters are about 18" when they hatch from eggs.

Thanks for the input !
AJM.
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Thu 29 Mar - 0:59

Here is L. annulata defensive posture. No puffed neck, but they do flatten their heads to mimic a viper's. No "S" posture, as mine have never done it.



I know I'm limited to one experience, but here is a [i]L. stenophrys
defensive posture. Only slight throat puffing.

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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Thu 29 Mar - 2:29

Chris , excellent observation, the Leptodeira annulata specifically from Suriname mimics/resembles a young Bushmaster (Lachesis muta muta ) on the basis of lepidosis and color pattern.

In Costa Rica C.A it's been said that "The Jumping Viper" (Atropoides mexicanus), mimics a Bushmaster on the same attributes, lepidosis.

Leptodeira annulata and new born Bothrops atrox were the brunt of few hoaxes in the field in Suriname to green guest researchers at first glance...Look we found a baby Bushmaster or a Boom-oro-ko-koe...not !

Still all in all Leptodeira annulata is a very interesting specimen i think a friend of Professor Micheal Burger has an albino.
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Thu 29 Mar - 3:19

Yes, actually the rhomboid pattern in L. annulata (as well as the color) might make it somewhat easy to mistake by some. However, while at first glance I might be able to see one being mistaken, I think the thickness of the body would seem to be an instant determining factor - though I suspect under the shine of a flashlight at night, things are not always apparent. I suppose I've seen too many hatchling L. muta (3-4 dozen) to confuse the two species.

[img][/img]

Female Suriname L. muta showing the semi rhomboid markings

[img][/img]

L. annulata with rhomboids


Good Observations Mr. Montejo! You are second to none when it comes to experience with neotropical snakes.....

Regards

Michael
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Fri 30 Mar - 5:54

My L. annulata are imported from Suriname.
I could see it I guess. I'd have to agree with Michael on the size giving it away pretty quickly. And I haven't noticed keeled scales on them.
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Fri 30 Mar - 6:51

Great let's get past that point . Which fundamental rule governing snake mimicry do you believe that ( Leptodeira annulata ) empirically fit under, Batesian , quasi-Batesian, Mullerian or Mertensian mimicry.

Please give me your theory not based on lepidopterans models.

Thanks, for your reply Chris.
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Fri 30 Mar - 23:02

I admit that I don't know mimicry very well, but I'd say it is more of a batesian model. Of course I think one would need to determine the specific predators each species is defending itself from to determine the real roots of mimicry. I wouldn't say either evolved in protection from humans, so it may be that both have coevolved to look similar in patterns because of their environment - not one mimicking the other.

That being said, I would say that L. annulata's flattening of it's head would mimic a viper, but couldn't say which particular species it evolved to mimic.
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Fri 30 Mar - 23:30

Yes , your guess is as good as mine i really havent figured it out yet, although on Danny Mendez's URBAN JUNGLES RADIO SHOW i think they had an segment dedicated to Leptodeira annulata .


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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Sat 31 Mar - 1:05

The triangulation of head is not a mimicry !
It evolved at complete different lineages of colubrids. However, the triangulation is produced with different rotations of bones and movements of muscles.
So it makes no sense with mimicry.

In my opinion, it is more useful to let the snake looks more threatening / bigger

rgds Fabian
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Sat 31 Mar - 1:48

Thank you Albert. I'll have to check to see if I can find that segment on UJ Radio.

Thank you also Fabian. I agree that it could be to make the snake look "bigger," but if it looks more "threatening" that would have to be mimicry. The triangular head only looks threatening because other species with triangular heads are threatening.
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Sat 31 Mar - 1:58

Batesian's theory was based on Lepidopterans, let's theorize for instance say a Suriname Bufo Marinus Spc. a) consumes or b) decides not to consume an Leptodeira annulata , what would be his incentive for either choice.

Serpent Chief's got a good point , quite a few snakes have that mechanismalistic behavior inclusive the Xenodon group, Mertensian theory of mimicry, Mullerian or none ? what do you think .






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PostSubject: mimicry involving Leptodeira   Sat 31 Mar - 4:25

Certainly an example of Mertensian mimicry- you have one species (Leptodeira), a mildly venomous serving as a model for a fatally venomous species (Lachesis).

Of course, just an opinion.

Michael
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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Sat 31 Mar - 5:26

Okay, let us assume that Leptodeira is a mimic of Lachesis in Suriname. At what point would you consider other species because of their superficial resemblance to Lachesis?

[img][/img]

A L. annulata (above)with semi rhomboid markings

[img][/img]

An Imantodes cenchoa (above) from Costa Rica with markings dangerously similar to Lachesis stenophrys.

Although coloration and pattern may be considered mimicry to an extent, the extreme slenderness makes it less so Mr. Montejo. Would you not agree?

Michael

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PostSubject: Re: Leptodeira annulata    Sat 31 Mar - 5:26

Mertensian mimicry, ok then Mertensian it is. Would the size of Leptodeira annulata influence anything , i really have collected meter long or longer indivuals in Suriname...Damn we use to call them "shit snakes" and sell them for five dollars.

Lachesis muta muta fatally venomous true , you couldnt tell from Dean Ripa bitten nineteen times by various Lachesis species and still sings like an angel as the star of the world famous bigband , The Tommy Dorsey Orchestra ( circa) Big Band Era !! he's one tough guy.
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