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 scaleless Bitis arietans

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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sat 20 Aug - 0:28

Quote :
(for those who can't live with out scientific nomenclature)

We should use scientific names as often as possible to avoid confusion which could take place with common names in certain species, Mr. Hallam!

Furthermore, we have a rule to use scientific names at least with the subjects (topic titles) making clear to every user and every guest what we are going to talk about.

sincerely,
Peter Zürcher

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Randy Ciuros
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sat 20 Aug - 1:01

Interesting Tim, I hadn't heard about the scale-less albino Crotalus atrox, but then again, I have been focusing on the Asian Naja. I used to keep quite a few Crotalus species many years ago, but I haven't heard about the scale-less Crotalus atrox. I'll have to ask some buddies about that.
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sat 20 Aug - 1:11

If there was a niche market for this scale less Bitis , i would breed it like theres no tommorow just to see if i was talented enough to and keep it alive , demystify your thoughts and forget magical thinking , after all its just as any other agricultural product such as ornamental plants, fish, cats , dogs, etc.

Get paid , drive Porsche , check out some Jay Z (otis) , check out Venomland from a coffee shop and be happy , why not ? none of these animals are ever going back in to the field.
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Tim Hallam
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sat 20 Aug - 1:55

Randy here's an image

they're not the most attractive things on the planet but they survivors



[img][/img][url][/url][img][/img]
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Randy Ciuros
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sat 20 Aug - 2:27

I have a couple friends that are into Crotalus sp. so maybe they have seen them or have a photo. Thanks though
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Ro vd Bergh
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sun 21 Aug - 6:12

From what I heard the Deathadders do well so we need an Australian in this topic with some insight info.

We have Crotalus atrox scaleless animals overhere as well but I think they look horrible to be honest. With for instance the Deathadders, the colors pop out like crazy but with the atrox it just looks like the animal is cooked.

Thanks for the tip about how to block Stefan. Good stuff...

Cheers, Ro.
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Jon Davidson
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PostSubject: Lol...   Sun 21 Aug - 6:36

Randy Ciuros wrote:
'If you have not seen an adult scale-less Puff Adder, then you really have nothing of importance to add the the discussion' ... 'Not run our mouths when we don't know what we are talking about...'
No comment... at this time. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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Neven Vrbanic
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sun 21 Aug - 19:56

I am caming a bit late into this topic but just to share my experince with scaleless puffadders. I got a normal pair of aritens from a friend from Austria back in 2004. as babies. His animals also came from a line of Peter Zürcher. I first breed them in 2006. and there was 17 normal babies and 5 scaleless in the clutch. I was astonished by the interest of people into scaleless animals. I am not going into debate wheather breeding scaleless animals is "good or bad" I marely like to share my experince. I have bred that pair two more time since - in 2008. I got 31 normal babies and 5 scaleless and in 2010. I got 38 normal and 5 scaleless. Interestingly enough each time, no matter how many normal babies there were I always got 5 scaleless babies. From the first clutch I kept only one scaleless baby for myself, a male. He was born 05.11.2006. and I had him until september of 2009. when I sold him. So he was almost 3 years old at that time. I had no problem with him apart from ocassional sheding problems if I did not spray him enough at the time of shedding. I never fed him too much so when he was almost 3 years old he was roughly around 45 cm. But my adult arietans are not more than 80-90cm. Here is one photo of him when he was younger but I will try to find some photo of him when he was older.

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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sun 21 Aug - 21:45

Quote :
I got a normal pair of aritens from a friend from Austria back in 2004. as babies. His animals also came from a line of Peter Zürcher.

Oh, really?

Please note: There is no "line of Peter Zürcher", and i've got scaleless arietans only once as a very big surprise in 2006.
I would never breed mutilated animals like these with intent, so talking about "my line" is not okay!

regards
Peter

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Randy Ciuros
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sun 21 Aug - 21:57

I don't think he was blaming you Peter. Just making a statement as to where his originally came from as far back as he knows. If you have some Puff Adders, and you sell some to a guy in Austria, and then he sells some to Neven, they are a line that came from you as opposed to a line from a different locality in Africa that someone else has. So, Neven and his friend have a line that came from you. Not necessarily YOUR line.

Things like that happen. That is sometimes how different color/pattern morphs happen. If I bought some animals from you, that outwardly appeared to be normal, and I later bred them, and I got some strange color or pattern morph, I would not credit you with producing them, as you didn't produce them and didn't know anything about the genetics before you sold them to me.
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sun 21 Aug - 22:15

completely wrong, Randy.
My first and only offspring of scaleless/poss.het. scaleless was in 2006.
Neven bought his from an austrian friend in 2004.

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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sun 21 Aug - 22:35

My appology Peter, did not mean to offend you any way. As Rendy mentioned I did not mean "Peter line" as such. I just thought that these Bitis arietans came from you through my Austrian friend. But I guess I was missinformed. Once again, my appology..
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sun 21 Aug - 23:02

Neven in the strictly niche market of exotica this Bitis would be worth several thousand dollars it has every qualification of a collectors item.

This is an international forum as such we should try to understand each persons country's history if possible, so we can better understand their philosophies, Peter there is no shame in producing this animal , in fact in a deeper scientific sense it may be a key to the evolutionary process.

Why mutilated ? i would consider this specimen an honor and a wonder bestowed to me by nature for my countless efforts in captive breeding , you and your Austrian friend won the genetic jackpot of odds , congratulations !
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Randy Ciuros
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sun 21 Aug - 23:52

Peter, I said he wasn't blaming you. And he wasn't. What am I COMPLETELY wrong about? I didn't say they were Peter Zurcher's line. Your getting awfully defensive for no reason. No one accused you of anything, but possibly selling some normal Bitis arietans to someone around 2004. But, it seems maybe you and Neven's friend, and now Neven have some from the same line. Whatever line that may be. You produced scale-less and so did Neven, so it is somewhat likely that all those animals are from the same line. Not Peter Zurchers line, but some line.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 0:12

Peter be honest did you sell this scale less Bitis for the same 15-35 USD. dollars or even gift it in a shipment , even as disgusted as you might have been for this un expected presentation or did you realize you had something special .

By any means we are all farmers of sorts in this agricutlural type business ( not very chic) word that.

If you accept trade you get paid it's called bartering, if you sell for a low price , high price , you get paid , credit, hopefully youll get paid.

So this was just one more fruit of your/s labor and by the looks of it somebody valued it.

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PostSubject: Lol...   Mon 22 Aug - 0:31

Randy Ciuros wrote:
'I thought we were all here to constructively talk about snakes. Not run our mouths when we don't know what we are talking about, or just to start an arguement'...' people running their mouths when they have nothing constructive to say, is ruining Venomland'.
Sigh... Sincerely, Jon Davidson .


Last edited by Jon Davidson on Mon 22 Aug - 0:46; edited 1 time in total
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 0:41

once again, for you, Randy:

I didn't sell any arietans around 2004. How could i if i purchased the adults in late 2005 and had the first and only litter in late 2006?????

and Mr. Montejo: oh yes, i knew what value on the market they might have, but i could resist to make that extra money. I sold two pairs of 66% poss. hets to german keepers (for just a normal arietans-price and with information!). Some hets and some scaleless went to friends (for free!) where they died in the next few months - and so did my holdbacks. The last scaleless specimen reached an age of 14 month, they all fed, but didn't grow well.

I mean what i say, and i don't like this freak show coming up more and more.

That's why i tried to correct Neven's statement, just don't wanna see my name in combination with the breeding of defect animals. "Peter Zürcher line of scaleless Bitis arietans" may suggest to others that i'm into production of freaks and aberrants.

Thank you, best regards
Peter


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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 1:03

Peter Zürcher wrote:
'Some hets and some scaleless went to friends (for free!) where they died in the next few months...' 'The last scaleless specimen reached an age of 14 month, they all fed, but didn't grow well'.


Thank you Mr. Zurcher for providing details on your experiences with these inadvertently produced genetic abnormalities. Perhaps all these specimens languished and died prematurely because they suffered from a profound genetic deformity? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 1:31

Dude what are you talking about , i admire his staying true to his heritage and all but that was one massive fail , for his hold backs not reaching adulthood , too bad in the " niche" exotica trade a litter like that would have earned him enough for Austria's finest perhaps a 1989 930 Porsche turbo or a triple black 911 sportster.

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Ro vd Bergh
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 1:41

Peter Zürcher wrote:


I sold two pairs of 66% poss. hets to german keepers (for just a normal arietans-price and with information!). Some hets and some scaleless went to friends (for free!) where they died in the next few months - and so did my holdbacks. The last scaleless specimen reached an age of 14 month, they all fed, but didn't grow well.

So you made it probably possible for other people to breed them.

Quote :
I mean what i say, and i don't like this freak show coming up more and more.

? Than you should not have sold them/gave them for free to make sure the line ends with you.

Cheers, Ro.
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 2:01

Ro seems that was his personal ethics , he did give them away/sell them with information.

What ever Ro, These Bling Bling bit*&^%ches were on Glades Herp price list @ 5,000.00 USD ea. sold in less than a week.

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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 2:37

I tried to look for a single post of Mr Montejo where he is NOT talking about making money. Can anyone help finding one?
I thougth the topic was "pictures of adult scaleless bitis arietans"?
Did I miss something?
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 2:53

Albert J. Montejo wrote:
'These Bling Bling bit*&^%ches were on Glades Herp price list @ 5,000.00 USD ea....'

Is this really the kind of language and phrases you think is appropriate in an otherwise adult discussion? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 2:59

Get use to it G . seems the various socialist goverments are'nt going to be able to finance their social welfare obligations so either theyre going to have too tax you nearly 100% to maintain 50% of your benefits or they going to have to write you an IOU.

There new excuse is reform , so it's like every where it's spelled corruption they've spent your money now they need more to maintain themselves.

i dont mean to open your eyes just trying to help you understand whats coming your way, looks like your going to have to start to learn to hustle for your self . (reform)

i know what im saying , i like you guys , so this is a heads up here in the States were already use to it.

Regards

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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Mon 22 Aug - 3:00

Albert J. Montejo wrote:
Ro seems that was his personal ethics , he did give them away/sell them with information.

What ever Ro, These Bling Bling bit*&^%ches were on Glades Herp price list @ 5,000.00 USD ea. sold in less than a week.


You've got to be kidding me! Shocked I can't believe people are willing to pay that for an incomplete snake...

Cheers, Ro.
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