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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 7:33

Ro vd Bergh wrote:
I don't judge people

Ro vd Bergh wrote:
You both have sometimes an arrogant way of talking to people

Ah, yes, I see ...
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Ro vd Bergh
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 7:35

Jon Davidson wrote:
Ro vd Bergh wrote:
That was all the time I needed. And yes, I'm done now, simply cause I have nothing further on the subject. That doesn't mean you can't discuss your point of view with other members so please feel free to go on.

Cheers, Ro.
I must have misunderstood you when you said that you will explain youself later... Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Yes, probably, misunderstanding things happens to you more often I noticed. clown

But I will give you this; I will give you the last reply in this topic. Enjoy!

@Guenter; I don't judge you because of it. Wink

Cheers, Ro.
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 7:39

I would call Your argumentation "selective cognition". Just see and hear what fits into You horizon and neglect everything else.

BTW: Take it as a judgement if You want, I won't care.
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Randy Ciuros
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 9:02

What is happening to venomland? Someone asked a question. Another person makes a statement about the subject asked, and then people that have nothing constructive to say about the topic start complaining about the question, or the topic, or the kind of people that keep the animals that are the subject of the topic. If you don't have something constructive to say, why say anything. It just starts a huge arguement and the topic never gets answered. I have seen 2 or 3 of those scale-less Puff Adders at Glades Herps. Robbie Keszey had them a few years ago. I have no information about any reaching adulthood, so I kept my mouth shut. Maybe if someone has a topic they would like to talk about, they should ask Jon, Guenter if it is a good and legitimate topic/question. Obviously they think they know more/better than everyone else. This place is really starting to go down hill.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 9:59

Randy Ciuros wrote:
What is happening to venomland? Someone asked a question. Another person makes a statement about the subject asked, and then people that have nothing constructive to say about the topic start complaining about the question, or the topic, or the kind of people that keep the animals that are the subject of the topic. If you don't have something constructive to say, why say anything. It just starts a huge arguement and the topic never gets answered. I have seen 2 or 3 of those scale-less Puff Adders at Glades Herps. Robbie Keszey had them a few years ago. I have no information about any reaching adulthood, so I kept my mouth shut. Maybe if someone has a topic they would like to talk about, they should ask Jon, Guenter if it is a good and legitimate topic/question. Obviously they think they know more/better than everyone else. This place is really starting to go down hill.
One could easily advise you, Mr. Ciuros, that if you don't like this site then you're more than welcome to leave. You have, after all, your own web site where you can espouse any point of view that you wish without restrictions. As far as the topic under discussion is concerned; please consider the following: Because a 'prominent'(for lack of a better word) individual engages in a questionable activity(such as deliberately breeding captive animals to produce a genetically degenerate abnormality), that doesn't mean that the activity is then, therefore 'ok' for others to emulate- nor does it mean that the activities of the 'prominent' person should be exempt from legitimate critical observation or, as the case may be, ethical questions. This is not the first time that you have accused another Venomland member of thinking that they 'know more' than other members; so perhaps you should consider that if you are unable to understand the legitimate ethical question that was raised in this discussion then perhaps your suspicions are correct in that there may be other Venomland members here besides you that have more knowledge, experience and a wiser perspective than you do. Also please consider that intelligent discussion and debate is good- up and until the point where a participant begins to make the discussion personal with inappropriate remarks. If you wish, I could provide the readers here with a couple of links that show how you have become hostile, belligerent and foul-mouthed when you had encountered another Venomland member who did not share your point of view. All members should feel welcome to participate in discussions here on the site, providing that they can do so in a mature, adult manner. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 10:05

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:


BTW: Take it as a judgement if You want, I won't care.
Lol... Mr. Leitenbauer- this is the best line so far in the Thread. With Thanks, Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 12:30

Read Tim's original post. He didn't say it was a good thing to breed scale-less Puffs. He asked if anyone has seen an adult. That's it. He didn't start a discussion on the good or bad points of breeding two animals and accidently or purposely producing abnormal offspring. If you have not seen an adult scale-less Puff Adder, then you really have nothing of importance to add the the discussion, so why turn a legitimate topic into an arguement? Hasn't there been enough of that here lately? If I don't want to talk about something, I keep my mouth shut. Others should do the same if you care at all about future of Venomland.

Yes, I have went off sometimes when people who think they are holier-than-thou, run down other peoples animals out of jealousy or whatever reason. I thought we were all here to constructively talk about snakes. Not run our mouths when we don't know what we are talking about, or just to start an arguement from an otherwise legitimate topic. There are many topics on here that I don't even read, because I have no knowledge of the topic, or no interest in the topic. I don't come into a conversation about something I know nothing about, and start calling people liars, or accusing them of only caring about making money.

Sure, everyone has the right to put in their two cents, on any topic, but why do it if your not contributing something positive to the subject? Asking questions and learning from each other is what made Venomland the best snake discussion site on the web, but people running their mouths when they have nothing constructive to say, is ruining Venomland.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 13:58

Randy Ciuros wrote:
Read Tim's original post. He didn't say it was a good thing to breed scale-less Puffs. He asked if anyone has seen an adult. That's it. He didn't start a discussion on the good or bad points of breeding two animals and accidently or purposely producing abnormal offspring. If you have not seen an adult scale-less Puff Adder, then you really have nothing of importance to add the the discussion, so why turn a legitimate topic into an arguement? Hasn't there been enough of that here lately? If I don't want to talk about something, I keep my mouth shut. Others should do the same if you care at all about future of Venomland.

Yes, I have went off sometimes when people who think they are holier-than-thou, run down other peoples animals out of jealousy or whatever reason. I thought we were all here to constructively talk about snakes. Not run our mouths when we don't know what we are talking about, or just to start an arguement from an otherwise legitimate topic. There are many topics on here that I don't even read, because I have no knowledge of the topic, or no interest in the topic. I don't come into a conversation about something I know nothing about, and start calling people liars, or accusing them of only caring about making money.

Sure, everyone has the right to put in their two cents, on any topic, but why do it if your not contributing something positive to the subject? Asking questions and learning from each other is what made Venomland the best snake discussion site on the web, but people running their mouths when they have nothing constructive to say, is ruining Venomland.
In the interest of 'constructive' comments, perhaps you could point out for us where a participant in this discussion has referred to another individual as a 'liar' or accused them of only caring about money? In the meantime, I would suggest that you consider the possibility that making a positive contribution to a discussion may include expressing a point of view that you don't agree with. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 14:27

Jon Davidson wrote:
The fascination with deliberately engineered genetic abnormality eludes me. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

This was IMO the line where some of the "Gentlemen" here had a big problem with.
And my opinion is, that it is either weird nor aggressive or offensive in any sense. It is just a meaning. Some guys here seem to think they can attack every opinion that does not correspond to theirs like Ro did. Or behave like they have a big problem with their self-esteem an/or self-consciousness.

Sorry to put it that clear, but I won't anybody here (except an moderater if I go to far) allow to tell me that I might not express my opinion. This is not the f... marine corps here, this is an open forum. If You want to give orders, do it anywhere else. If You have a problem with democracy, liberalism and pluralism, leave. Very interesting that especially some guys from one of the most liberal countries in the world (Netherlands) don't seem to understand that. Hopefully nobody would blame their coffeeshops for that Very Happy

Randy Ciuros wrote:
Sure, everyone has the right to put in their two cents, on any topic, but why do it if your not contributing something positive to the subject? Asking questions and learning from each other is what made Venomland the best snake discussion site on the web, but people running their mouths when they have nothing constructive to say, is ruining Venomland.
Ok, - but from the same day I stumbled about that very constructive post:
http://www.venomland.net/t4541-breeding-xanthic-culminatus#33081
Randy Ciuros wrote:
Not really into Crotalus sp. but they are really beautiful animals.
Besides that Randy, I could cite many of threads with "Nice specimen" comments from You - just to react to Your accusation that only people who can contribute essentially to a thread should comment. 90% of the comments are of this type, not just from You, generally.

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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 16:34

I know my next remark isn't constructive or positive but I really don't care about people giving me - or + , or what "important" or rather "known" people think about me...

But for some time now I cant help wondering how some people can type so much,
and say so little...


Just leave out all the "interesting" words and get to the point. You may think they make you look smarter but they really don't.

my 2 (probably not too much valued) cents.



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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 16:36

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:

Ok, - but from the same day I stumbled about that very constructive post:
http://www.venomland.net/t4541-breeding-xanthic-culminatus#33081


He said Crotes aren't his thing, but those are nice best of luck.Way to fail at sarcasm, you need to get over yourself .Seriously this thread might as well be shut down.God status here won't STFU, and let the actual topic continue
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 17:39

Jeremiah Elleman wrote:
STFU, and let the actual topic continue

If that is Your niveau, it is really better not to put some more effort into this thread. Which is exactly what I am going to do.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 17:41

The best line in this topic from Jon or Günther!? Hell no! The best line in this topic is from Tim! It made me smile instead of the crap that Jon and Günther are writing that irritates me like crazy... It is even woth a quote hahaha Very Happy

Tim Hallam wrote:
hell for that matter does anybody have any pics of anything freaky- two headed/two tailed/inside-out ! i've just hatched out a one eyed western hognose and one eyed blood python do they count? -not out the same egg though! lets really get this freak show on the road maybe we can upset some more evolutionary biologists nothing like a blahblahblah to get the party started
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 18:41

Sorry Mario for talking like this on your forum... I really do not like these kind of discussions but some people irritate me a lot for long time now.

Can someone explain me how the ignore function works at this forum? It is time to ignore a few members so I will not get into these kind of discussions anymore Smile
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 19:31

Found it out myself! Just go to the profile of that person and click add to foes list Smile
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 19:56

Quote :
Sorry Mario for talking like this on your forum... I really do not like these kind of discussions .

So why did you participate?

Quote :
Can someone explain me how the ignore function works

a healthy amount of self-control would have the same effect.



and now, ladies and gentlemen, back to topic!

Whoever has a picture of an adult naked Bitis arietans should feel free to post it here. I have never heard or seen that these creatures reach maturity, as far as i know all scaleless offspring has been produced by breeding heterozygous specimens.
Unless proven otherwise, one could take that as a fact, or at least as an additional reason to think critically about these freaks.
Furthermore, everybody should be allowed to write his personal opinion on this issue, may it be pro or contra - and no one should dictate other users what they're allowed to say or not.

regards
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 22:16

First off Jon, I didn't say that anyone here said anything bad about someones animals, or called them a liar. You said quote "I could provide the readers here with a couple of links that show how you have become hostile, belligerent and foul-mouthed when you had encountered another Venomland member who did not share your point of view." So you are not talking about the current topic, and neither was I.

Guenter: Tim asked if anyone has seen an adult scale-less Puff Adder. What does Jon's comment "The fascination with deliberately engineered genetic abnormality eludes me." have to do with the topic other than to start an arguement. Tim didn't say he wanted to see photos of "deliberately engineered abnormalities".

I didn't say you can not give your opinion Guenter. I said quote "Sure, everyone has the right to put in their two cents, on any topic, but why do it if your not contributing something positive or constructive to the subject? You and Jon are the only ones telling me and maybe others to LEAVE venomland. I have never told you to leave, I just ask that you try to make your comments add something positive or constructive to the topic, not just start an arguement. I asked. I didn't give you orders.

Ok, - but from the same day I stumbled about that very constructive post:
http://www.venomland.net/t4541-breeding-xanthic-culminatus#33081

Yeah, very good Guenter, haha. Point to a post of mine showing exactly what I have been saying. haha. I am not really interested in crots, anymore, so giving someone a compliment like that on a specific crot is an especially positive and constructive post. I didn't go to his topic and accuse him of trying to breed "lollypop" rattlesnakes. That would have negative and destructive.

a healthy amount of self-control would have the same effect.
Like I have been saying. Why should someone comment if their comment is only going to start an arguement and has nothing to do with the topic, which was posting a photo of an adult scale-less Puff Adder.

Peter, I believe the scale-less offspring I saw at Glades Herps came from normal "scaled" parents, which as you say could have been het specimens, but I don't think they were bred knowing that. I believe breeding animals that you know are going to produce scale-less animals is not a good idea.

You don't have to delete my post defending myself against your friends like you did before. I will not comment on them anymore, in any topic. I will go do what Stefan did, so I don't have to read their posts.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 22:30

Amen to that Randy!
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 22:57

Thanks for telling us about how to block peoples comments Stefan. Out of sight out of mind.

I'm going to email Robbie Keszey and ask him if he knows of any scale-less Puff Adders making it to adulthood.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 23:05

Quote :
You don't have to delete my post defending myself against your friends like you did before.

That hasn't be necessary, Randy!

First of all, you don't have to tell me what to do or not at all.

second, please note that i already deleted posts of my so called "friends" elsewhere on this forum. Insulting me for beeing prejudiced or dependent isn't what i should earn for my work here in my opinion.

And that's it, gentlemen - further personal offtopics will be deleted, from whom they ever may come from.

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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 23:05

Yes, I am interested in that too... I know someone in the Netherlands that accidently bred them a few years ago out of two normals. I will ask him what he did with them and if they reached adult size Smile Because I have never seen of heard about adult specimens, I don't think they are very healthy.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 23:11

I emailed Robbie and got a auto response, about them being busy filming for their new show that will be on TV, so I have no idea when I may get a real response about the Puff making it to adult.

No more off topic comments from me Peter. I blocked the causes. And I didn't mean to tell you what to do, just saying you didn't need to, as I blocked the people that cause me to comment. Should be smooth sailing from here on out.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 23:37

Randy Ciuros wrote:
First off Jon, I didn't say that anyone here said anything bad about someones animals, or called them a liar. You said quote "I could provide the readers here with a couple of links that show how you have become hostile, belligerent and foul-mouthed when you had encountered another Venomland member who did not share your point of view." So you are not talking about the current topic, and neither was I.

Guenter: Tim asked if anyone has seen an adult scale-less Puff Adder. What does Jon's comment "The fascination with deliberately engineered genetic abnormality eludes me." have to do with the topic other than to start an arguement. Tim didn't say he wanted to see photos of "deliberately engineered abnormalities".

I didn't say you can not give your opinion Guenter. I said quote "Sure, everyone has the right to put in their two cents, on any topic, but why do it if your not contributing something positive or constructive to the subject? You and Jon are the only ones telling me and maybe others to LEAVE venomland. I have never told you to leave, I just ask that you try to make your comments add something positive or constructive to the topic, not just start an arguement. I asked. I didn't give you orders.

Ok, - but from the same day I stumbled about that very constructive post:
http://www.venomland.net/t4541-breeding-xanthic-culminatus#33081

Yeah, very good Guenter, haha. Point to a post of mine showing exactly what I have been saying. haha. I am not really interested in crots, anymore, so giving someone a compliment like that on a specific crot is an especially positive and constructive post. I didn't go to his topic and accuse him of trying to breed "lollypop" rattlesnakes. That would have negative and destructive.

a healthy amount of self-control would have the same effect.
Like I have been saying. Why should someone comment if their comment is only going to start an arguement and has nothing to do with the topic, which was posting a photo of an adult scale-less Puff Adder.

Peter, I believe the scale-less offspring I saw at Glades Herps came from normal "scaled" parents, which as you say could have been het specimens, but I don't think they were bred knowing that. I believe breeding animals that you know are going to produce scale-less animals is not a good idea.

You don't have to delete my post defending myself against your friends like you did before. I will not comment on them anymore, in any topic. I will go do what Stefan did, so I don't have to read their posts.
Thank you for your additional explainations, Mr. Ciuros. You have raised- albeit inadvertently- an important point regarding our communications here on the site; and that is that no one should ever be expected to defend themselves personally from another individual, however all members should be expected and prepared to defend their point of view. Please let the site know if you locate a scale-less adult Puff Adder that has survived its profound genetic abnormality for any length of time. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sat 20 Aug - 0:04

some years ago Luke Yeomans unexpectedly produced some albino scale-less WDB rattlesnakes they did very well as neonates and eventually found their way to the USA (incidentally a lot of the albino atrox in Europe are related to these) where I believe they have now matured and gone on to reproduce so the lack of scales clearly didn't hold them back, it's for this reason I wondered about puff adders.

but I suspect the puff adders Bitis arietans (for those who can't live with out scientific nomenclature) just as Ro suggested don't fair as well. but I'm praying there's at least 1 out there just for the hell of it

regards Tim

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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Sat 20 Aug - 0:15

Tim Hallam wrote:
'but I'm praying there's at least 1 out there just for the hell of it.'

regards Tim

A worthwhile motivation for any acitivity... How unfortunate, on this occasion, that Mr. Yeomans is not around to provide his insights on how to produce and raise this particular genetic abnormality. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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