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 scaleless Bitis arietans

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Tim Hallam
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PostSubject: scaleless Bitis arietans   Thu 18 Aug - 2:29

Greetings venomlanders!

I was just curious it's been a while now since scaleless puff adder babies arrived on the scene has anyone got pictures of an adult they must have all grown up by now?
and I've never seen one (adult that is) like I said just curious

cheers Tim.
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Ro vd Bergh
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Thu 18 Aug - 4:24

I know a couple that died growing up so I don't think the're healthy animals but maybe somebody can show me that I'm wrong.
I would like to see some adults as well.

Cheers, Ro.
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Jon Davidson
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Thu 18 Aug - 10:58

Ro vd Bergh wrote:
'I know a couple that died growing up so I don't think the're healthy animals but maybe somebody can show me that I'm wrong...'

Cheers, Ro.
Perhaps the specimens died prematurely because they didn't have any scales...? The fascination with deliberately engineered genetic abnormality eludes me. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Thu 18 Aug - 15:41

Jon Davidson wrote:
The fascination with deliberately engineered genetic abnormality eludes me.

Well said.
I guess all real animal lovers prefer healthy and genetically undamaged specimen.
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Tim Hallam
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Thu 18 Aug - 18:01

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:
Jon Davidson wrote:
The fascination with deliberately engineered genetic abnormality eludes me.

Well said.
I guess all real animal lovers prefer healthy and genetically undamaged specimen.

That's a bit harsh Guenter being curious about a naturally occurring (not as some believe deliberately engineered) mutation does not make me or others on this forum any less than "real animal lovers" puff adders have such large clutches it's enevitable that genetic abnormalities show them self
I was just curious as too wether anybody had managed to raise one to adulthood. Personally I prefer animals in there natural form but like most of us I prefer the brighter more striking animals, which as the colour and patternation in some species seems to continuously improve I guess is a form of deliberate engineering. If my memory serves me right I believe you keep Brazilian Rainbow Boas and I know that the 'normal' specimens that are available today are far brighter than the majority of wild caught animals that first came into the hobby all those years ago.

regards Tim Hallam

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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Thu 18 Aug - 18:38

Tim I meant of course the hype of "producing" such abnormal specimen.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
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Ro vd Bergh
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Thu 18 Aug - 19:29

Jon Davidson wrote:
Ro vd Bergh wrote:
'I know a couple that died growing up so I don't think the're healthy animals but maybe somebody can show me that I'm wrong...'

Cheers, Ro.
Perhaps the specimens died prematurely because they didn't have any scales...? The fascination with deliberately engineered genetic abnormality eludes me. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Gee Jon, you think so? Why do you say this in such a weird tone, it's almost insinuating that I would want some.Ii had multiple oppertunities to buy some but I don't keep deformed animals. I have nothing against fancy colors though.

I'm just curious if I am and always was right when I said that they probably won't live long.

I don't judge other people though, each his own and there are worse problems in the world than people keeping these.

Cheers, Ro.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Thu 18 Aug - 20:18

Great topic , waiting for the adult pics!! ... I believe the Acanthophis (Death Adders) are breeding well for scale-less so their shouldn't be a problem with Puff Adders ?
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Thu 18 Aug - 23:24

Ro vd Bergh wrote:


Gee Jon, you think so? Why do you say this in such a weird tone, it's almost insinuating that I would want some.Ii had multiple oppertunities to buy some but I don't keep deformed animals. I have nothing against fancy colors though.

I'm just curious if I am and always was right when I said that they probably won't live long.

I don't judge other people though, each his own and there are worse problems in the world than people keeping these.

Cheers, Ro.
Perhaps you could please explain how you find my tone to be 'weird'? The meaning of my post is clear. In my view, judging people's actions and behaviour is essential for a community that places a value on ethics- especially when it involves other Life forms. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 0:16

Tim Hallam wrote:
'Personally I prefer animals in there natural form but like most of us I prefer the brighter more striking animals, which as the colour and patternation in some species seems to continuously improve I guess is a form of deliberate engineering'.

regards Tim Hallam

Freaks, hybrids, deformities(such as polycephalic specimens) etc. do occur, on occasion, in nature. However, to use this a pretext to deliberately breed captive animals in order to produce genetically degenerate abnormalities for little more than fun and profit- or merely for 'curiosity' as the case may be- raises an important ethical and moral question for the people who have a genuine and legitimate interest in the evolutionary biology of snakes. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 1:58

Jon Davidson wrote:
Ro vd Bergh wrote:


Gee Jon, you think so? Why do you say this in such a weird tone, it's almost insinuating that I would want some.Ii had multiple oppertunities to buy some but I don't keep deformed animals. I have nothing against fancy colors though.

I'm just curious if I am and always was right when I said that they probably won't live long.

I don't judge other people though, each his own and there are worse problems in the world than people keeping these.

Cheers, Ro.
Perhaps you could please explain how you find my tone to be 'weird'? The meaning of my post is clear. In my view, judging people's actions and behaviour is essential for a community that places a value on ethics- especially when it involves other Life forms. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

You're quoting me to make a statement and it looks now you're explaning the obvious to me.

Did I really have to explain this?

Cheers, Ro.
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Jon Davidson
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 2:30

Ro vd Bergh wrote:
Jon Davidson wrote:
Ro vd Bergh wrote:


Gee Jon, you think so? Why do you say this in such a weird tone, it's almost insinuating that I would want some.Ii had multiple oppertunities to buy some but I don't keep deformed animals. I have nothing against fancy colors though.

I'm just curious if I am and always was right when I said that they probably won't live long.

I don't judge other people though, each his own and there are worse problems in the world than people keeping these.

Cheers, Ro.
Perhaps you could please explain how you find my tone to be 'weird'? The meaning of my post is clear. In my view, judging people's actions and behaviour is essential for a community that places a value on ethics- especially when it involves other Life forms. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

You're quoting me to make a statement and it looks now you're explaning the obvious to me.

Did I really have to explain this?

Cheers, Ro.
You don't have to explain what it is you mean to say in your posts, if you would (for whatever reason) prefer not to... Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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Ro vd Bergh
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 2:48

I just did so your last reply was obviously not needed and a bit childish as well.

Cheers, Ro.
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Jon Davidson
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 3:23

My 'tone' in this discussion has not been 'weird'(no need to clarify your remark, if you would rather not), nor have my comments been 'childish', Mr. Vd Bergh. You have expressed a tacit approval of this deliberate genetically engineered abnormality with your words: ' I don't judge other people though, each his own and there are worse problems in the world than people keeping these'; whereas I have offered a different point of view. Perhaps you should try to stay on topic if you genuinely wish to discuss the ethics of deliberately breeding captive animals in order to produce degenerate, genetic abnormalities for profit, curiosity and amusement? Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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Stefan Anthonijsz
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 3:34

@ Jon: Bla bla bla... Neutral
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Ro vd Bergh
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 3:46

Don't tell me what to do.

We're talking about you quoting me and answering me in an arrogant way. You made it sound like I would want some and I don't like that since that is simply not the case.

Where did I say I approve keeping these in my first post while I only said that I was curious to see if the're were any adults alive??? Shocked And you write all this after I explained that I would not keep them and never did... Read man.

Cheers, Ro.



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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 5:44

Sorry Ro, but I can't read anything weird or offending in Jon's first quotation. It seems to me that You triggered this confrontation out of nothing. Maybe You did misunderstand him, but I don't like the way You get so emotional - just my very personal opinion.
Guenter
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Ro vd Bergh
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 6:07

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:
Sorry Ro, but I can't read anything weird or offending in Jon's first quotation. It seems to me that You triggered this confrontation out of nothing. Maybe You did misunderstand him, but I don't like the way You get so emotional - just my very personal opinion.
Guenter

I'm not surprised Guenter. You both have sometimes an arrogant way of talking to people so you probably see nothing wrong in that way of responding.

Just my personal opinion.

Cheers, Ro.

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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 6:29

Ro vd Bergh wrote:
Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:
Sorry Ro, but I can't read anything weird or offending in Jon's first quotation. It seems to me that You triggered this confrontation out of nothing. Maybe You did misunderstand him, but I don't like the way You get so emotional - just my very personal opinion.
Guenter

I'm not surprised Guenter. You both have sometimes an arrogant way of talking to people so you probably see nothing wrong in that way of responding.

Just my personal opinion.

Cheers, Ro.



Smile Just my personal opinion

now, does anybody have any pictures of any scaleless puff adder adults ,

hell for that matter does anybody have any pics of anything freaky- two headed/two tailed/inside-out ! i've just hatched out a one eyed western hognose and one eyed blood python do they count? -not out the same egg though! lets really get this freak show on the road maybe we can upset some more evolutionary biologists nothing like a blahblahblah to get the party started-why are the Dutch so cooool?

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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 6:38

Haha Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 6:42

Ro vd Bergh wrote:
Don't tell me what to do.

We're talking about you quoting me and answering me in an arrogant way. You made it sound like I would want some and I don't like that since that is simply not the case.

Where did I say I approve keeping these in my first post while I only said that I was curious to see if the're were any adults alive??? Shocked And you write all this after I explained that I would not keep them and never did... Read man.

Cheers, Ro.



Please note that I have not told you what to do, Mr. Vd Bergh. Please note further that you-with your own words- have qualified your approval with: 1): 'I don't judge other people, though'; 2):'each his own'; and 3): 'there are worse problems in the world than people keeping these'. I understand that the issue can evoke strong feelings from some members; however, I'll leave it to other Venomland members to decide for themselves whose comments in this Thread have been 'weird' or childish. Sincerely, Jon Davidson
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 6:59

Fine with me. Again you begin about that frase that I will explain later. I'm talking about your first reply. You misinterperted my reasons and your respond was not how we should talk to eachother.

My frase about that I don't judge people is just the way I try to live! Unless people let's say hunt whales or beats seals for fur. Now that is animalcruelty. I get upset about those things.

Let's say somebody comes with this story;

I had a couple Bitis arietans and suddenly I had 2 scaleless animals. You're an animal lover, you're not going to kill them I assume? You raise them and they do fine. Totally not what you expected but they do. If that persons than later breeds them. I don't care! All our snakes are ecological dead and my line is where the animal suffers. I wouldn't do it, it's not my thing. But who am I to judge anyway... I put animals in cages because I like looking at them.

Pffff... I'm done now with this conversation. I'm afraid nobody's going to post his scaleless puf anymore though. Rolling Eyes

Cheers, Ro.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 7:16

Ro vd Bergh wrote:
'Again you begin about that frase that I will explain later'.

Pffff... I'm done now with this conversation. I'm afraid nobody's going to post his scaleless puf anymore though.

Cheers, Ro.
Please feel free to take as much time as you need to explain your point of view... However, if you're done with the discussion then that's fine too. With best wishes, Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 7:21

That was all the time I needed. And yes, I'm done now, simply cause I have nothing further on the subject. That doesn't mean you can't discuss your point of view with other members so please feel free to go on.

Cheers, Ro.
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PostSubject: Re: scaleless Bitis arietans   Fri 19 Aug - 7:26

Ro vd Bergh wrote:
That was all the time I needed. And yes, I'm done now, simply cause I have nothing further on the subject. That doesn't mean you can't discuss your point of view with other members so please feel free to go on.

Cheers, Ro.
I must have misunderstood you when you said that you will explain youself later... Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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