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 Naja samarensis cb 2011

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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 18:42

Youngsters of the first clutch hatched and did their first shed - so it's time to share some pictures:





These are F2 - another F1 clutch will still take about 3 weeks to hatch.
These youngsters are still ugly - they will reach their full beauty in about 1 - 2 years - but one can already see which way they will go...they will become stunners!

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Peter

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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 19:03

Ahhh ... beautiful. Interesting how they differ on the hood patterns!
Can't wait to take some "tabletop" shots Wink
All the best for this youngsters!
Guenter
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 19:25

N. samarensis, is rarely if ever seen here in the states albeit it's making some appearences on
the market, it will probally have some demand, on kingsnake they are asking 8500.00 for a trio.

Obviously some beautiful captive born , Filipino ? specimen , no one can be in denial.

Congratulations,

Albert.

* i would be interested in knowing more about its natural history as this locale has rarely been exported for many years, and then only sporadicaly and usually" con fines scientifico" scientific purpose.
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Emil Lydhagen
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 19:30

Very nice snakes! Congrats on the clutch.

How much is known about the potency of the venom?
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 19:39

As we wait for Peter to anwser , ill guess from a scale 1-10 probally 9.5 in potency .
Only for the top echlon of professional herpetoculturist as her beauty comes with a price of discipline and intestinal fortitude and strict adherence to protocol.
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 19:41

It's not that much known about the venom, as far as i know, Emil.
It has been reported to have cytotoxic (usual in spitters), neurotoxic and cardiotoxic components.
No antivenin is available for this species so far. The more dangerous cobra on the Philippine Islands is for sure Naja philippinensis with its strong (and "fast") neurotoxic venom components - an antivenin is available for that species.
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 19:42

Peter congrats to the clutch!!!
They look awesome! I'm really looking forward to see them Laughing

regards
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 20:00

Peter - I know that N. philippinensis has a very potent venom and that's why I wondered about N. samarensis. I figured it would be similar to other asian spitting cobras. Thank you for the informative reply. Do you know any papers on their venom and/or any bite reports from N. philippinensis or N. samarensis?

Regards,

/E
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 20:14

Emil,
don't ever rely on similarity in asian spitting cobras when it comes to venom.
One example: We have Naja philippinensis as a spitter - with a very potent (and fast "working") neurotoxic venom - on the other hand we have other spitters like Naja siamensis with a toxin mixture causing mainly local symptoms (only 15% of the victims show neurotoxic symptoms and no fatalities are seriously recorded).

references:
LUTZ, M. (2006) Die Kobras des philippinischen Archipels Teil I: Die Philippinen Kobra, Naja philippinensis Taylor, 1922 Sauria 28(3): 5-11
WATT, G., L. Padre, M.L. Tuazon & C.G. Hayes (1987) Bites by the Philippine Cobra (Naja naja philippinensis): an Important Cause of Death among Rice Farmers. American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, 37: 636-639
WATT, G., L. PADRE, M.L. TUAZON, D.G. THEAKSTON & L. W. LAUGHLIN (1988) Tourniquet Application after Cobra Bite: Delay in the Onset of Neurotoxicity and the Dangers of Sudden Release. American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene, 38(3): 618-622
WATT, G., L. PADRE, M.L. TUAZON, D.G. THEAKSTON & L. LAUGHLIN (1988) Bites by the Philippine Cobra (Naja naja philippinensis): Prominent Neurotoxicity with Minimal Local Signs.

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Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 20:23

http://www.carnivoraforum.com/index.cgi?board=reptiles&action=print&thread=6107
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 20:37

Thank you Peter and Guenter. I think I might have been obscure with my poor english.
My apologies, but thanks for being clear. Always nice to learn new things.

Thank you for the references aswell.

Regards,

E
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 20:48

Thanks for that reference Guenter, so i m aware of the Northern phillipine, Naja phillipinensis .

What are they writing about the Southeastern form, are they insinuating that Naja samarensis
is symbiotic to or sister of Naja phillipensis , i dont mean to confuse the reader this statement is in reference to the PDF . printed by Guenter Leitenbauer .

Completely interesting , what would be excellent would be the size of the island and are both forms found on this island , is this the Adaman's Spitting Cobra .


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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 21:01

The Andaman's island cobra is an different specie and is known as Naja sagittifern.

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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 21:17

Northern Philippine Spitting Cobra--> Naja philippinensis
Southeastern Philippine Spitting Cobra or Visayan (Spitting) Cobra --> Naja samarensis.

once more: don't rely on these different common names.

Naja sagittifera, the Andaman Cobra, has nothing to deal with philippine cobras. This species lives on Andaman Islands in the Andaman Sea and should be closely related to Naja kaouthia.

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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 22:12

Very nice Peter, you definitely have some of the nicest samarensis.

For those of you in the USA, I have traded for 3.3 CB'09 and CB'10 Naja samarensis, so there will be samarensis available here in a year or two, and they will not cost you anywhere near $8500 a trio.

I emailed the guy about that ad for the Actually $8575 trio. I know who he is, and he never emailed me back and the ad was removed from kingsnake.com. I think he was hoping to make enough money to import the snakes to the America, AFTER he sold them, and still make more than a 200% profit.

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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 22:32

Peter, last question , please accept payment with gratitude (damage control) for the lesson are N. samarensis and N. phillipinensis related or two distinct species all together.

Thank you , for the insight.

Albert
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 22:48

Yes, two distinct (dissimilar) full species at this time

Naja samarensis PETERS, 1861
Naja philippinensis TAYLOR, 1922

As far as i know, relationship between these and phylogenetic origin has not been cleared definitely yet.

It might be that i'm not on a current level in these questions - so other persons (like Dr. Wolfgang Wüster) maybe could tell you more.....

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Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Thu 19 May - 23:31

Congrats! i love samarensis colors ! Hope to have a pair one day.
R.
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Fri 20 May - 2:18

Now Peter i think you might start to understand my position with the species that i work with as your predilected ones also are too new in captivity (life obs.) for assumption's only through several years of personal observation can we begin to draw some conclusion and yes Wusters work may help as an initial blueprint to the specie, but he may have not recovered from seeing the Albino jararacussu so let's give him some days.

Completely interesting thanks,

Albert.

*Today i learned that it is not reasonable to clump spitters together in any context as spitting is a mechanism and nothing more....i think!
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Fri 20 May - 2:51

Oh no....! Mr Zurcher looking at your reference i noticed this Naja phillipinensis is Naja naja phillipinensis if this nomenclature is still valid that totaly changes the situation and brings it closer to Naja naja and then somehow to naja kouthia even Naja sagittifera than to Naja samarensis. a.) Bonus tip* theyre large hood .

*if smoke comes out of your ears from following my participation in Peters thread from overheating of your cerebrum, please scroll down, im looking for a serious anwser from this valid question.
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Fri 20 May - 3:45

From all I know Naja naja philippinensis is no longer valid since a couple of years now and Naja philippinensis is well accepted as a species for its own in the genus of Naja, or am I completely wrong again, Peter?
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Fri 20 May - 4:12

No, Mr. Montejo, it's Naja philippinensis, not Naja naja philippinensis.
Knowledge of current taxonomy and former taxonomic revisions and changings could be very helpful, if not necessary at all, if it comes to reading and understanding scientific papers.

Quote :
yes Wusters work may help as an initial blueprint to the specie,

The early systematic and taxonomic work of Linnaeus and others, maybe later on those of authors like Boulenger, Stejneger, Schmidt, just to name a few, might have covered what you call "initial blueprint" in your attack of ignorance!
The serious work from many todays taxonomists using new and exact tools, such as DNA-sequencing and phylogenetics is able to give us a more and more exact picture of relations and origin. This "tree of live" will never be finished, and it will never be perfect, but we are walking forward with these new methods.


Quote :
only through several years of personal observation can we begin to draw some conclusion

Are you serious? Please tell us which taxonomical conclusions you "drawed" from your "personal observations"!
I would ilke to read your experiences and observations here, even without important conclusions, as husbandry or breeding reports - that could be useful and important to many of our users. Pictures of mutants and their phantastic prices may help you to act as a "tough" guy here (if you need it), but they're far away from beeing helpful in supporting our members to learn in husbandry of their animals.

Quote :
but he may have not recovered from seeing the Albino jararacussu so let's give him some days

Everybody here has the right to accept or to refuse this increasing freak show which unfortunately takes over more and more - and everybody has the right to claim his opinions here!
I will not further tolerate these sneering remarks here - I already had to delete personal insults, but you did not learn your lesson.
So, once more, this is VenomLand, not a tavern!

You're seriously warned!

regards
Peter Zürcher

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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Fri 20 May - 4:53

http://www.reptilienzoonockalm.at/najaphilippinensis.htm

*Thank you this was all i was asking for each time i learn more ,
completely interesting and now i understand what you mean .
im assuming this was written by you.

At this moment in time i can not duplicate such a paper .
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Sat 21 May - 2:11

Some years back, I was told Naja phillipinensis venom was comparable in potency to the venom of Notechis scutatus, the Australian Tiger Snake. I have no idea what the source of this statement was, and I have no idea if it's true.

Is this correct? Is Naja phillipinensis truly this potent?
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PostSubject: Re: Naja samarensis cb 2011   Sat 21 May - 3:22

38 out of 39 victims developed respiratory failure, 19 of these complete respiratory paralysis, 3 of these within 30 minutes (Watt et al. 1988)

Death rate among Philippine rice farmers is 107 out of 100.000 in a year. Only 8% of the victims do reach a hospital (Watt et al. 1987)

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