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 Naja kauothia *suphan*

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Mario Lutz
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PostSubject: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 12 Mar - 1:10

well, some of our most impressive cobra personalities, our "suphan" kauothias, both members of this couple are nice overreacting at all times, especially the albino female raises up so hight - she sometimes even falls on here back! thats funny to watch..

hope you like the Pose of her!


the two year old couple Naja kauothia *suphan* female; albino & male; het



the male (close-up)




cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 12 Mar - 1:24

Nice Suphans...

Few days ago we found out, that our adult female of this "form" looks like gravid too. Unfortunatelly we don`t have Suphan male, so we used albino male too. She is basking more as usually, and also got very nice fatness at the end of the body... It would be very nice, as she didn`t breed last year for us. Normally she has over 30 eggs when mated with normal colored male, so I am very curious what quantity she can give us now... I don`t know if it`s rule, but by our experience albino kaouthias have much lower quantity of eggs. Friend of us got this year just 8 eggs from one female, and 12 eggs from second one Surprised( We will see...

Really impressive cobras... affraid
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 12 Mar - 4:15

@ Peter
Glad to hear You bred a suphan female with a normal colored kaouthia, I was looking for a person who did and have some questions:
Could You tell us something about the "genetic background"?
What coloration did the babsy have? Were they split off in suphan and normal coloration or have they been intermediates between suphan and "normal"?
Were they all normal colored and heterozygous for suphan, which I really could believe hardly, but some people say so?
As far as I know, all intermediate colorations between suphan and "normal" occur in nature, so the genetic disposition of suphan must be intermediate, but I did'nt see any intermediates on the market recently.

Maybe You could post a picture of Your offspring here?

Best regards from Austria
Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Thu 13 Mar - 3:25

Hi Peter,

I have to disappoint you, but all babies from such breeding were normal colored. Maybe they were a little bit lighter colored, but definitelly not suphans. Anyway, I am thinking they have genes for "Suphan form" in blood, but once it isn`t conformed by next breeding, we can just guess it... I will try to dig out some pictures of babies....
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Thu 20 Mar - 6:47

Here are few pictures of our female... She is still getting fatter and fatter... Shocked





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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Fri 21 Mar - 1:55

Interesting topic - just the other day, I saw N. kaouthia supposedly hatched from the same clutch - one was leucistic/"Suphan", the other normal coloured. From memory, one of the parents was 100% het leucistic, the other 50% het, The offspring certainly looked exactly like the "Suphan" cobras I saw in Thailand back in the 1990s, so that may just solve the puzzle.

Cheers,

WW
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Fri 21 Mar - 3:02

Interesting topic, indeed. With my questions I tried to bring a little bit of light into the darkness around the mystery of leucistic monocled cobras.
Leucistic's are a bit mysterious to me, because of the fact that many people are offering them, but almost nobody has'em in reality.
I've got a pair of kaouthia's from a friend of mine last year, they both should be heterozygous for leucism, and fortunately, they should be ready to breed, we'll see.
Here's a picture of leucistic kaouthia offspring, showing a normal colored and a leucistic? hatchling. As far as I know, the parents were both heterozygous.
Unfortunately, I did'nt see any adult phaenotypic specimens out of this line, the leucistics have been sold to some U.S. herpers, the rest (66% poss. het. leuc.) was sold in Europe.
Hatchlings of leucistic kaouthias could easily be misidentified as suphans, they need about a year or so to turn to the typical snowy white.
I've been told, that normal colored monozygous specimens should be easy to separate from heterozygous ones by some colour differation.
[img][/img]
Picture taken by Peter GREGAN

Greetings
Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Fri 21 Mar - 9:16

Peter Zürcher wrote:

Hatchlings of leucistic kaouthias could easily be misidentified as suphans, they need about a year or so to turn to the typical snowy white.

exactly, also the opposite way. suphans hatchlings can be easily misidentified as leuzistics. i remember, when i get my suphan babies, the normal colored ones looked like leuzists. snow-white and blue eyes. after one year they turned into normal looking suphans.

@wolfgang

welcome to VenomLand Wolfgang! nice o have you "on board"!


Mario
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Tue 25 Mar - 3:56

We have in collection 2 pairs of kaouthia` yearlings, which are heterozygots on leucistic form. Among approx. 20+ babies in clutch there were 7 leucistic babies... These hets look different as normal colored babies, nice bandings are presented as is visible over baby on Peter`s picture... I will look for pictures in our files of whole clutch and also babies (hets and also leucistic), will post them here later...

Short update on "Suphan" female... On Friday morning I found finaly our female on eggs! Wink I was leaving for hollidays, so Marek did final counting and putting eggs into incubator. As I wrote sooner, we were very curious how many eggs female will lay due fact of lower quantity of eggs among albino kaouthias (this female was mated with albino male)... Fortunatelly, female made what we expected from her, as she laid totaly 33 eggs!!! Shocked Cool On picture below you can see how she laid them, their weight etc. On pictures are visible just 32 eggs, last was found over female later, when other eggs were already in incubator.
We offered to female also big box with wet spagnum, but she prefered (as most of other females) laying inside of dry hidding box. Due this fact it`s very important to check it every day! If eggs lay inside the box 2+ days, there is usually no chance to safe them... Crying or Very sad











As usually, female is very hungry after such achievement! lol!



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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Tue 25 Mar - 4:26

Ok, I found pictures I mentioned above... Here are pictures of parents of our heterozygots on leucistic, leucistic babies and also view of whole clutch. I made a small mistake in counting of babies, there were totaly 25 babies, 8 of which were white... Pictures are made by Jan aka Abyssus...









The following amazing pictures are from our friend Harold from Netherland, showing one of white babies...









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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Tue 25 Mar - 16:42

Thanks Peter, nice pictures, but:
to be sure to deal with real leucistics, one should see a picture of the leucistic? (grand)parents or a recent picture of the white babies. I already knew the pictures of Harold VanderPloeg, he published them on other websites/forums, he does'nt call his animals leucistic, but "pearl", whatever this should mean...
Real leucistics are extremely rare, during my career I only had knowledge about two specimens, imported from Thailand by swiss people. In the early nineties, I had the opportunity to see these animals in a swiss herpstore (Rudolf Nater), one of them found its way to Austria later, purchased by Alfred Wallner (for real god money). This specimen died a couple of years ago, unfortunately without beeing bred in order to save its genetic disposition.
Here's a picture of Wallner's leucistic kaouthia (male)
Picture taken by Fred KUNDERT, Copyright by Alfred WALLNER
Sorry, poor quality, in printed form only.

http://www.ec-nockberge.at/abc.htm

In my opinion, leucistics are pure white, they don't have any pigment cells along their body (in their eyes they do), there are no light brown clouds on top of their heads, and there's no "muddy" appearance of the body scales in adults.
Unfortunately, I have to guess that there's no real leucistic kaouthia in european collections at this time.
Cheers
Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Tue 25 Mar - 17:08

Hi Peter,

of course, I am not telling these are real leucistic animals. I know Harold is calling them "pearl", breeder is calling them "white", sometimes leucistic... If so or differently, they are still nice looking animals, different to albinos and normal kaouthias. I am glad we have few of heterozygots as well, future will tell us if we can get some "pearl/white" babies as well. Maybe it could be interesting to breed these heterozygots with albinos, I think nice mix of babies should be as result... We will see, maybe we will try it, and not let males just laying around... Wink

It`s interesting story about animals Alfred had...

Thanks,
Peter
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Tue 25 Mar - 21:21

Hello all together, I´m the new one on this Site and this is my first posting. I hope my English isn´t to bad ;-)

The themes Naja kaouthia leucistic and Naja kaouthia suphanensis are still interesting. I delve into with this 2 forms since the last 2-3 Years.
The most interesting I´ve found out was that first all offered “leucistic” kaouthias has still been the Suphan-Form and second nobody realy know how hachtlings would lool like when a “normal” kaouthia will breed to the Suphan-Form.
So did I recognized it in the right way. The hatchlings will look “normal”? So they are heterozygot for Suphan-Form? Maybe this is yet another Point why so many people thinks that these bright kaouthia are leucistic. They breed normale kaouthias, which are maybe het. for Suphan and between the hatchlings are these white one´s…so they think these can only be leucistic one´s.

As Mario and Peter just said it is still hard to find out if a hatchling is leucistic or just a Suphan Form. I think only after ½ - 1 Year you can see the different so the Suphan hatchlings so they will get darker. It starts at the tip/top of the scale and after every skinning it will get darker more and more to the bottom of the scale.

There´s one Question which I ask to myself if I see some pics of leucistic kaouthias (often to see from a huge Breeder from the USA one kingsnake.com).
There are still pure white snakes…BUT on the head they have dark pattern. In my eyes…these one´s can not be leucistic or what do you think?
I understand that leucismus is a mutation which can´t produce any cells with pigments/colouring all over the body incl. the head.
This means that leucistic snakes are really pure white all over the body because the pigment cells of the neural crest cells in the embryogenese aren´t "emigrated".

@Peter
Very nice one´s Very Happy They look so qute. If these one´s are really leucistic I think you will see it in some months/years.

Here are some pics of my Breeding pair and their hatchlings.
You see the little one´s are really white. They (the hets.) look like yours.

(amelanistic Suphan-Form)
(amel.)
(heterozygot for amel Suphan-Form)
(het.)
(het. with 2 years)
(the adult female het.)
(the adult male)

I breed a amelanstic suphan to a het. amel suphan. All the hatchlings are white with dark or red eyes. The hets get then a little bit darker….the red eyed one´s still keep white.

The interesting is…that so many Suphan-Form kaouthias are kept…but there are so little…hardly to find amel. Suphans.

Maybe it is interesting for someone…in the next few days my kaouthias of these colourform will hatch ;-)

The Problem in reference to bright Naja kaouthia that there exist so many terms/names. An example…I know the pictures of Harald kaouthias and I personaly think that these ones are the Suphan-Form. The hatchlings, juveniles are BEAUTIFUL! The colour of the head is so nice so the name “perl” is self evident. But I think it will get more clearly when you see a pic of an adult “pearl” kaouthia. They look like suphans.

It will be still a Problem to find realy leucistic one´s especially I´ve heard of ADULT suphan´s that are so WHITE that there is no difference to see to a real leucistic snake.
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Tue 25 Mar - 22:28

Hello Carsten,

welcome on the forum, it`s good to see you over here... Especially after post you made... Wink
Your post brought real mess into whole problem of Suphan form` Naja kaouthia for me... Shocked As I wrote sooner, when we bred Suphan female to normal male, all babies were normal. Now, when we bred her with albino (amelanistic) male, can we expect babies as are showen over your pictures? "White" babies with black eyes? Or those with red eyes? It`s really very interesting, I am curious for our result, and can`t even wait next 2 months for it Embarassed Rolling Eyes

I know Mitch from USA, who is breeding leucistic and sunset kaouthias... They both look nice, but the prices he is asking are out of range we could/would cover... Wink

Keep us posted about hatching of babies in near future, I wish you hatching of all babies...

Best regards,
Peter
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Tue 25 Mar - 23:03

Hi Peter,

I´m still on work...but I´ll try to get my train now and will write something in the afternoon/evening...
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 1:38

So...

The "Suphan-Gen" and the "Amelanistic-Gen" are recessive. When you breed a amel "normal" male with a Suphan-Phase which is NOT het. for amel I think that you´ll get "normal" looking kaouthias which are het. for amel and suphan. When you then breed these double het. hatchlings together I think you´ll get this (I´ve upload the pic yet but you´ll see it not until tomorrow morning):

NN is a "normal" kaouthia, a -> amelanistic and s -> suphan



1 "normal" kaouthia
2 het for amel kaouthia
2 het for suphan kaouthia
4 het for amel and suphan
1 amel kaouthia
1 Suphan kaouthia
2 amel het for suphan
2 suphan het for amel
1 amel suphan

So I think this is the answer why there not exists so many amel suphans.

The "white" babies with the black/dark blue eyes are normal suphans (het. for amel). You´ll get these one´s if you breed a suphan kaouthia to a het. for suphan kaouthia.
THe "white" babies with the red eyes you´ll get in the easiest way if you breed an amel suphan with a het. for amel suphan.

Is Mitch working for a bigger reptile store (Diamond reptile breeders - I don´t know if it is allowed to say names of firms here?)?

However...I just looked into the incubator and just saw the first hatchlings Very Happy Cool
Tomorrow I´ll post some pics of them.


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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 2:49

Hi there!
I'm not really happy about the course of the discussion, sorry Sad
In my eyes, instead of getting clear, it's getting more complicated, and new questions rise up.
Per example the following:
If the inheritance in suphan is dominant-recessive indeed, where are all these intermediates in nature coming from?
"The "Suphan cobra" ("N. k. suphanensis") is a colour variety of N. kaouthia known from Central Thailand. All intermediates between "typical" Suphan cobras and "typical" N. kaouthia are known, and a molecular genetic study showed no differences between these colour forms"

(cited from WW's Website, Asiatic Cobras Systematics Page)
Insecured greetings
Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 3:43

Hi Peter,

I think we´ll need a new headline for these Naja.
"Naja kaouthia - The most mystic Naja" Wink

I know the paper of WW and it´s right that it is a colour form from a special area in Thailand.
But I think that this is not an indication that the genes can not be recessive. There are NO differences between the genes of a Naja kaouthia and a Naja kaouthia suphanensis.
But when you compare the genes of Naja kaouthia with an amel Naja kaouthia or an axantic Naja kaouthia you will not find any differences, too. Because amelanistic, axantic or suphan are just colour forms of Naja kaouthia. The difference is that the suphan is a local form and the other variations (amel etc.) can exists everywhere. I hope I´m right...if not please adjust/correct me.

After I´ve heard from some sites that the result of breeding a "normal" kaouthia with a Suphan-Phase are normal looking kaouthias...I think that the genes are recessive, too.

But there is a good question....where came the intermediate forms from of Naja kaouthia? Maybe these are variations with another genetic background.
Peter...can you say where this intermediates can be found in Thailand? Are they found everywhere or especially in the same area where the Suphan-Form exists?
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 4:51

Hi Carsten
Since all Najas are mystic to me in some manner, "the most mystic Naja" would fit perfectly to kaouthia!
You wrote "I think the genes are recessive too", and under these circumstances there's no other possibility than to agree.
With your thesis "maybe these are variations with another genetic background", you might be on the right way, but how would you like it the other way?
Maybe the "suphans" in our collections are not "the suphans" known from some Provinces as colour variation, but some kind of mutants?
I know it's impossible, but it would be very interesting (and perhaps answering some questions) to track down our "suphans" back to the first imported specimens.
I don't have any field experience in Thailand and cannot tell anything about the distrubution of these colour intergrades between suphans an normal colored kaouthias.
Maybe other members here could tell us anything about it?

Mystic regards
Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 14:39

This case of Naja kaouthia is really big mess, I think we have to be patient and forward slowly step by step. Experiences of this website` members could help to bring a light into whole problem... We will wait how babies of our present breeding look like... It could give us at least one of many answers we are looking for... Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 16:26

Good morning,

as you´ve seen I´ve put a Diagramm with more details in my posting above.

At first...a picture of yesterday evening Very Happy


I think today in the evening I can bring out the first hatchlings out of the incubator.
More Pics will coming soon.

@Peter
Yes...that could be a alternative, too...that there exists two forms of bright kaouthias with a different genetic background. But I think this would be hard to find out. Someone had to get WC Suphans of this area and had to breed this one to a 100% "normal" kaouthia. Then we would know more.

My personal attitude is that our keept suphans are the same as in the special area in Thailand. And the intermediate forms/ the brighter kaouthias with a light monocel are just other variatons. If I compare it with the Colour forms of Naja naja and how many there exists?!

To make the confussion perfect...what do you think of this site/colour variations ;-)
- calico
- albino calico
- marbled (never heard or seen one)
- albino marbled (never heard or seen one)
- red-eyed leucistic one´s

Here the links
http://members.aol.com/edexotics/BreedingProjects.html (Here you only find the different colour variations)
http://www.printroom.com/ViewAlbum.asp?userid=EdExotics&album_id=63997 (some pics)
http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/dwa-species/73700-new-additions-leucist ic-monocled-cobras.html (pics of red eyed leucistic)
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 17:53

Hi Carsten
As far as I know, the cause of "calico" is still unknown. At least we know one thing: this colour variation has nothing to do
with the phenomenon of leucism, as many people believe.
In the case of calico "albino" and "how to breed them, we first should know about the heritance of calico. Is it dominant, dominant-recessive or co-dominant?
In the case of red eyed leucistics (if they are real leucistics at all!), I could imagine, that absolutely no pre-pigment cells have migrated from the neural crest, not
even closed to the central nervous system, what causes the blue or black eyes in "normal" leucistics.
Greetings
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 18:02

I read that Calico or piebaldism is sometimes called partitally leucism. Question Question Question
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 18:29

I know, Jörg, many people believe it, but I think it's wrong.
There are pigment cells in calico and piebald, but a part of'em is not able to produce melanin.
In leucistic, there are no pigment cells at all (with the exception of the eyes)
So the reasons of calico/piebald and leucistic are different.
Greetings
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   Wed 26 Mar - 19:25

To make everything more confusing yet, what do you think about these axanthic kaouthias which showed up for sale in USA?







I can`t help myself, but I like this color as well... Of course, US` price is very high for a pair... Shocked Rolling Eyes Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Naja kauothia *suphan*   

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Naja kauothia *suphan*
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