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 Bothrops insularis

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April Mandel
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PostSubject: Bothrops insularis   Sun 8 May - 3:35

I've never seen Bothrops insularis either offered for sale, or in collections, public or private. Have any Venomland members kept, or seen, this species?

It's exceptionally toxic, and it only occurs on a remote island occupied by members of the Brazilian military, so it isn't a snake that can easily be collected. I'm just wondering if it has ever been offered for sale. I think the island it lives on has no mammals, and the snake feeds on birds.
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Sun 8 May - 6:17

April, i promised the Austrailian elaps. gang i informed them about the westerns hemisphere's venomous, let's see Iilha Queimada Grande's Jararaca Ilhoa, The Golden lancehead not particularly rare on this island but becoming so, moderately inbred with signs of hermafroditaism (intersex) in both males and females from isolation , first cousin of Bothrops Jararaca, visited with this specimen numerous times insitu (2t) and at Instituto Buntantan Sao Paulo when i lived in Rio De Janeiro, Brasil.

Has been captive bred numerous times in Rio , Niteroi , Sao Paulo and Europe, feeds on baby quail as juveniles and can be switched to mice early , large heads like most Bothrops sporadically it comes up for sale, it is a snake with no distinguishing features as an adult has a tan muddy brown dorsal coloring lighter ventral with longer fangs than Bothrops jararaca , tail is not prehensile and a venom much more toxic than most Bothrops inc. Bothrops jararacussu, LD 50 i forgot . No real demand for this specimen from professional herpetoculturist "in the known" In the United States you can visit this snake at Dean Ripas serpentarium in Cape Fear , North Carolina or go to his website.
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Marthinus C. Harmse
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Sun 8 May - 6:55

Im only aware of one female in Europe, but somewhere somebody must keep more.
They are spectacular animals in every sense to say the least.
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Jaroslav Karhánek
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Mon 9 May - 17:24

A friend of mine have seen this specie one time for sale in Houten show I think and the price wasn´t high. Few people in Europe keep them for sure. I have heard that even in Czech republic keep them somebody but not sure who. But breed them is almost imposible what I know. This is nice very nice specie but I prefer another species of Bothrops sp:)
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Marthinus C. Harmse
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Mon 9 May - 23:30

Hi Jaroslav.
Thanks for the info.
I think the problem is also getting pairs of these.
There surely are some very nice Bothrops out there like B. fonsecai, cotiara, osbornei and moojeni.


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Bostjan Kraner
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 3:01

There was one for sale on this forum for 1000€. I would like to get my hands on pair of these also. Owesome snakes Golden Lanceheads!

Best regards, BKK
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 3:11

Wat's up, Bostjan and Marthinus what do you guys find awesome about the Jararaca ilhoa Bothrops insularis.

note* i find all reptiles special.
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Bostjan Kraner
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 3:34

Rarity always makes the snake interesting. We all like exeptional snakes and insularis is one of them. Realy rare and exceptional.

Best regards, BKK
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 3:37

When i joined VENOMLAND i emailed many friends from Brasil to enroll and they did, they have many pic's and story's as they warm up to you guy's maybe theyll post , the language barrier is a big problem, i may have to translate and we all need to learn how to post pic's maybe you guys can recommend a host or even if you pm me one to post pics here.

Heres some comments, it's fine to "delete" this if it offends by postings of some other forum .

bothrops species and european market


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frenchkeeper
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: bothrops species and european market
hi i'm asking to european keepers, i have few contact in brazil who breed venomous snakes, what bothrops species do you want to see in europe(except insularis, legally impossible to import)?
this is for brazilian species only
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Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:43 pm Post subject:
B. insularis is in at least one European collection but the one colony I know of hasn't bred *yet*.

Cheers
B
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frenchkeeper
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 6:14 am Post subject:
i've saw one pair for sale on terraristik anzeigen 1.2 adult, higher price win the snakes! ebay like method, maybe unsuccessful breeding...
i know one other breeder that have 2.3 but without papers...
i'm interested in bothrops but i've never had one...waiting good opportunity!

regards

Yann
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bothrops
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:34 am Post subject: bothrops
i am really looking for bothrops moojeni, jararacussu, Bothrops fonsecai,Bothrops cotiara and of course Bothrops brazili.
if you can offer some, we can have a deal. i live in germany and can drive to france no problem!
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Venomdoc
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Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:23 am Post subject:
>i know one other breeder that have 2.3 but without papers...

papers arent needed as they aren't CITES listed. As opposed to B. asper which is listed despite being one of the most common snakes in C. America!
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Cantil
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Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 12:58 am Post subject:
It was told to me sooner, that it isn't allowed in Brazil to export native snakes or even to keep them at home as pets.

If it changed and you can get them legally I'm also interested.
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WW
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Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:42 am Post subject:
Cantil wrote:
It was told to me sooner, that it isn't allowed in Brazil to export native snakes or even to keep them at home as pets.

If it changed and you can get them legally I'm also interested.


Depending on where you are, the legal status of the species in the home country doesn't matter. In the US, the Lacey act makes it a criminal offence to import or trade an animal exported illegally from its home country (irrespective of CITES status); in many European countries, once the animal is out of its home country, by whatever means foul or fair, it's legit unless it is CITES.

And Bothrops asper has come off CITES - sometimes, however rarely, common sense does prevail.

Cheers,
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Tim Leerschool
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 3:47

I know someone selling a B. insularis currently. Fascinating snake indeed but way out of my league. Never seen them yet.

Best regards,

Tim
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 4:11

Wats up Tim , man can you believe being on the Big Burned island off the coast of Sao Paolo during the second rain season in Dec.of 92 and seeing one B.Insularis every ten square feet Hmm. Private eco-tours it's quite normal so dont think bad of myself please.

So at one time there were more than 5,000 Golden lancehead specimens their, they knocked off (killed) several lighthouse keepers on the island just too many.

Point in case is theyre not at all rare but isolated the reason they are somewhat protected is for their venom property other than that the only good snake in Brasil is a dead snake .

They like the commercial aspect of herpetoculture and the phenomonon of the United States western culture status( illusionairy) but the myth persists.

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Jaroslav Karhánek
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 5:08

It´s as you wrote. You need to have good friends and money and then is possible to get almost every species including B.ammodytoides
About insularis, few people keep them and sometimes you can see them for sale as it was mentioned. But breed those snakes is impossible. I think that somebody already wrote it here, to this time noone bred them (reasons are written here I think). On their island where they live are very common but the island is protected area i think and get there is very difficult but not unreal of course.
In the Brazil isn´t problem to get all lanceheads which live there but then is problem to bring them to Europe. It´s the biggest problem I think about these snakes:(


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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 5:37

Well if your a navy seal you can swim there for free !!!

Ps. Jaroslav i like your symbol the BushMaster.
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Marthinus C. Harmse
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 15:56

Its not the rarity of insularis which makes it appealing. Its about a story of a beautiful species having evolved in isolation e.g. its venom having adapted on Queimada Grande for its survival. Then theres the extra hype around the snake species spooking and evenomating island visitors! lol. Legendary snake.

It would be interesting to hear what Wolfgang has to say about them.
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 19:31

Does anyone have a full pdf of this paper regarding insularis (and other species) as Bothropoides?

Fenwick et al 2009 - Morphological and Molecular Evidence for Phylogeny and Classification of South American Pitvipers, Genera Bothrops, Bothriopsis and Bothrocophias (Serpentes: Viperidae) . Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society 156: p617-640.

regards
Peter

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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 19:45

Exactly Marthinus evolved, Bothrops jararaca is perhaps the most wide spread to common specie of its kind in southeastern Brasil and certainly highly prolific.

When Bothrops jararaca became isolated on Ilha Queimada Grande , well then you can see the outcome upon reading on the natural history of Bothrops insularis as well about its population on the island.

Bothrops jararaca are also isolated on various other islands off the coast of Brasil but perhaps more recently than Bothrops insularis.

See also Bothrops Atrox. note: Most common venomous snake in South America .
See also Bothriopsis taeniata, Lachesis castelnaudi-Boulenger, 1896 Cat. Snakes British Mus. note:3:1-727{544}. a.) The rarest Bothrops specie b.) as Bothriopsis species the rarest genera.
See also Bothrops lanceolatus.

Cheers, from a naturalist and eyewitness.

Albert.
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 20:34

Peter Zürcher wrote:
Does anyone have a full pdf of this paper regarding insularis (and other species) as Bothropoides?

Fenwick et al 2009 - Morphological and Molecular Evidence for Phylogeny and Classification of South American Pitvipers, Genera Bothrops, Bothriopsis and Bothrocophias (Serpentes: Viperidae) . Zoological Journal of the Linnean Society 156: p617-640.

regards
Peter

Here Peter:
http://parkinson.cos.ucf.edu/publications/Fenwicketal.pdf
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 20:41

Oh, that was quick!
Thank you!!!!
Best regards
Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 22:06

Thanks for the article.
Nice read.
Here is another related article.

Snakes from coastal islands of State of Săo Paulo, Brazil
http://www.capesnakes.org.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=665#p3711
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 23:13

This is where it gets strange , why Lachesis castelnaudi i ask myself that question the year 1896 and no DNA sequence , herpetology was "handmade" through ecology , morphology and behavioral sciences no electron microscopes , just Instituto Buntantan and Dr. Vital Brazil and co. and live and expired speciemen.

a.) 2011 after collecting , breeding , observing all Bushmaster species inc. Lacheseis rhombeata at Instituto Vital Brazil as a guest of Dr. Anibal Melgarejo who was first to hatch eggs of this specie in the world, And Lachesis Melanocephala as guest of then resident tech. Dr. Rodrigo Ayermerich of the instituto Clodomiro Picado, Costa Rica.

b.) 2011 after collecting , breeding , observing Bothriopsis taeniata , apx. 20 speciemens inc. captive born babies .

i find from observations in captivity of this specimen Bothriopsis taenieata to be consistent to Lachesis species, some similarity in venom component and even their vagina dentalis morphology, albeit not ovoviviparous an arboreal Bushmaster ? .

Thanks Peter for asking the right questions !, Thanks Remi for the ref.

Regards

Albert.
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Wed 11 May - 23:16

Note my comments are in reference to the Fenwick PDF.

Thanks ,

Albert
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Thu 12 May - 0:34

Before this thread ends up in a muddle, we should know what we are going to talk about further on, Mr. Montejo.
We started here with questions and remarks about Bothrops (Bothropoides) insularis.
Feel free to open a new thread when continuing to demonstrate your taxonomical views of Bothriopsis taeniata (Lachesis castelnaudi or whatever) and the Lachesis genus.

I'm looking forward to hear more than some observations in captivity to underline your perspective.
And let me tell you one thing about methods and tools of taxonomy: Taxonomy has become more exactly and more reliable by leaving the "handmade" age and starting to use methods and tools like microscopes and DNA sequences.Very Happy

Quote :
why Lachesis castelnaudi

why Coluber naja or Boa contortrix?
They just didn't know it better, resp. they didn't have the possibilities .....and there have more species been placed in the genus Lachesis at an earlier stage, like Bothrops atrox and Bothrops jararacussu.

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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Thu 12 May - 2:04

Peter, you are correct stay focus on today's literature as all other authors and theories have now been proven obsolete and dated or even "hand Made".

i really enjoy the Campbell and Lamar's group intelectual metabolism.

Good to hear from you again .

Regards

Albert.
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Thu 12 May - 2:45

Marthinus C. Harmse wrote:
Thanks for the article.
Nice read.
Here is another related article.

Snakes from coastal islands of State of Săo Paulo, Brazil
http://www.capesnakes.org.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=665#p3711

Thank you for the link, I have never read it before.
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PostSubject: Re: Bothrops insularis   Thu 12 May - 2:47

Albert J. Montejo: You have mentioned something about revision of Lachesis sp. If you would be interested I have some article about that revisison from Dean Ripa.
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