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 Bad News From The U.S.

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Jason Will
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PostSubject: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 3 Feb - 23:47

A man was bitten in New Jersey by his venomoid "pet" albino naja kaouthia.

http://www.northjersey.com/topstories/fairlawn/020111_Fair_Lawn_man_25_in_serious_condition_after_pet_cobra_bite.html
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Marthinus C. Harmse
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Fri 4 Feb - 0:46

Hope the guys makes it. If I'm not mistaken then a man recently perished from a copperhead bite too?
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Jon Davidson
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Fri 4 Feb - 0:49

So... A 'venomoid'(which is a completely made up word)snake turns out to be still capable of delivering a potent bite. Well, surprise, surprise, surprise. Perhaps this incident will turn out to be a good thing, in that it may discourage other idiot, wanna be 'venomous snake experts' from acquiring what remain dangerous animals regardless of how they may have been modified. Let's hope that the repercussions of this incident does not seriously impact the seemingly ever smaller community of legitimate private venomous snake keepers. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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Brett Franklin
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Fri 4 Feb - 13:25

Well said Jon. Agree 100%.
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Fri 4 Feb - 15:29

Nothing to add, Mr. Davidson.

Looking at the cobra, I would say that guy was defrauded and had to pay a high price for his attitude towards animals.
One might maybe call that "attempted murder" too.

Rainer
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Peter Schulze Niehoff
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Fri 4 Feb - 16:05

Not to forget, even if - what in fact seems not to be that sure - this kind modified animals are harmless and easy to deal with for any small-ego-sized idiot, possible offspring will definitively be not!

Peter


Last edited by Peter Schulze Niehoff on Fri 4 Feb - 17:21; edited 1 time in total
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Nigel Sowter
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Fri 4 Feb - 16:49

He has a pet rabbit? Herpers amazing people!
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Simon Ball
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Fri 4 Feb - 17:23

Jon Davidson wrote:
So... A 'venomoid'(which is a completely made up word)snake turns out to be still capable of delivering a potent bite. Well, surprise, surprise, surprise. Perhaps this incident will turn out to be a good thing, in that it may discourage other idiot, wanna be 'venomous snake experts' from acquiring what remain dangerous animals regardless of how they may have been modified. Let's hope that the repercussions of this incident does not seriously impact the seemingly ever smaller community of legitimate private venomous snake keepers. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .

Absolutely right, Jon. Having a "venomoid" can only encourage the keeper into lax practices anyway. Like you, I hope this incident does not impede legitimate keepers. But hopefully it will turn the spotlight on the practice of surgically modifying venomous reptiles and have it stopped.
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Fri 4 Feb - 18:12

Even if it was venomoid (which I find an awful thing to do to a snake) I still can't understand why to handle it without the necessary care. I avoid bites also from my non venomous snakes as good as I can because of the infection risk and also simply because of the pain (well, at least my boas).
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Johan Söderström
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Sat 5 Feb - 2:05

Quote :
So... A 'venomoid'(which is a completely made up word)snake turns out to be still capable of delivering a potent bite.

Aren´t all words made up?
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Kelly Chabak
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Sat 5 Feb - 2:23

s there a possibility that there was a procedure preformed on the snake, but that the seller was misinformed as to exactly what type of surgery had taken place? If the venom ducts are severed, rather than the entire gland removed, can't they heal? I just wonder if it was a snafu of that sort, or maybe he even mixed up his snakes, and sent the wrong one! Either way it sucks for all parties involved. I hope they have somewhere to place those snakes and they don't end up being destroyed.
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Greg Spencer
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Sat 5 Feb - 6:24

I am not going to get into the venomoid thing as I feel that is not the point. I was reading about this incident as well as the fatal copperhead bite incident on another forum. Besides the obvious disaster to the people involved along with their families, etc., there is another casualty.

It is my understanding from a brief reading that they (New Jersey) are trying to change the laws in regards to venomous( and I believe exotics such as cats, etc.) to completely outlaw them outright. Since I live in the States, I am always concerned about such laws, as it is very typical here for other states to follow suit either in whole or partial.

In regards to someone owning a venomoid....wouldn't it be common sense to test it out first on a rodent? It is a very strange and fishy tale to me. Perhaps the word "venomoid" was put out there to help alleviate against potential prosecution? Just food for thought....
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Raymond Hoser
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 13:54

Greg, you have asked some sensible questions. Most posts preceding yours were the emotive "see, told ya venomoids suck" kind of posts.
As one who has about 40 certified and TESTED safe venomoids, I get sick and tired of totally false claims of regeneration that are physically impossible.
I also note the regularity of tabloid newspapers getting facts wrong or misreported.
So in light of the above clip I'd be asking the following questions.
1 - Who sold the snake.
2 - Who performed the "venomoid" operation
3 - What kind of operation was done (and proof of same), duct cut, gland removal, or what?,
4 - When was the operation performed.
5 - Has the said snake since been checked (inspected) to confirm the above (since seizure) and
6 - What tests were done on the snake post operation (assuming we have this) and when.
Without this information and condemnation of venomoids or the operation (on the basis of the bite result here) is very premature.
I have made numerous comments elsewhere about the need for surgery to be performed by experienced persons and also the need to test all alleged venomoids BEFORE they are certified or claimed as such.
There are also several ways to reliably ascertain the venomoid state of snakes.

Anyway, if anyone has answers to the above, let me know, thanks.
I have an open mind and await all information.
Snakeman Raymond Hoser
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Walter Kidd
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 14:42

I have to agree with most all the points made here. I bought a venomoid cobra once just because it was what I wanted not because it was a venomoid. But also agreeing with Guenter I still treated it as if it were Hot. After having it about two months while feeding, just for tricks and giggles I threw a mouse in with it.........it bit the mouse and the mouse died. Just to test it again, I held a mouse to it with forceps and let the snake bite it on the hind leg. I timed it this time and in 3 minutes the mouse was dead. My point is much like Guenter's is - 1) I don't like getting bit by anything 2) we can never be too careful & 3) we all have chosen to keep venomous and with this comes the responsibility to be responsible. Responsible to ourselves, our families, and to the rest of the venomous world. No one writes in the papers or internet about the many many responsible venomous keepers, but everyone hears about the "slip ups" that gives the whole venomous world a "black eye". The reason we have such "bad laws" in the USA are because things like these keep happening.
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 14:52

For me it is just cruelty to animals to rob a snake it's ability to produce venom.
Nothing more to add.
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 15:02

Guenter, I respect your opinion, but note the same cruelty claims are made against people who keep snakes in plastic tubs, which I presume includes a few heads on this forum, including (again) myself.
Anyway, forgetting opinions for a moment, does anyone have any answers to the series of questions I put above.
I'm genuinely interested in the case!
All the best
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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 17:22

Can some one explain to me what are these green and red stripes on the side of the persons participation on this thread and forum , in The United States of America it means RED =STOP and GREEN +GO.

Thank you, for less distracting reading ,

Albert
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 17:22

Maybe the wrong place here to ask, Raymond.
Mostly snakelovers around here and IMHO this is not compatible with "venomoiding".
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Raymond Hoser
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 17:42

Guenter, thanks for your posts. I don't seek to change your opinions of venomoids. I put that in the category of "religion" and respect your choices.
However as this was a "venomoid" forum, I had assumed we could rationally discuss aspects or issues arising from them.
This thread started with an account of an alleged venomoid bite involving alleged venom regeneration. I have asked some logical questions arising from the news article which I was hoping to perhaps get answers to, if this is possible (it may not be).
The merits or otherwise of venomoids in general isn't relevant.
By the way, and for what it's worth, if someone hocked a snake that was allegedly venomoid that wasn't, they SHOULD be locked up!
All the best
SNAKEMAN
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Patrick Vince
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 17:53

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:
Maybe the wrong place here to ask, Raymond.
Mostly snakelovers around here and IMHO this is not compatible with "venomoiding".

I think your wrong Guenter, it is the good place here , on this forum (where else ?).....all of us are (i hope so) venomous snakes lovers...obviously everybody has the right to tell his opinion, even if you desagree with him, because you have this right too.
Tolerance is a good thing sometimes.
Regards.
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 17:53

Raymond Hoser wrote:
I put that in the category of "religion"

For me it is "ethics" not "religion".

patrick vince wrote:
everybody has the right to tell his opinion, even if you desagree with him, because you have this right too.
Tolerance is a good thing sometimes.
Regards.

Sure, agree. But "tolerance" is not the main attribute with which I would qualify Mr Hosers postings, if You are able to read between the lines in the different threads. Who is criticizing has to be aware to be criticized. No problem for me. Not sure about Mr. Hoser from all I read from him until now.
("like teaching evolution to creationalists" e.g.)
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 18:22

I agre with you, but some people have or have had to defend themself more than other, and this drive them sometimes to become more "intolerante" than others....it is not a good thing, but that why we should listen them, and take the best of them, even if it is a small, forgotten part.
R.
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Jon Davidson
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 19:26

Raymond Hoser wrote:

The merits or otherwise of venomoids in general isn't relevant.
In my view, the merits- or lack thereof- of 'venomoiding' a live, otherwise healthy venomous snake purely for the sake of convenience for the keeper is exactly the point in this discussion since an individual has lost their Life because of this procedure. Sincerely, Jon Davidson . Writer's edit: Correction: the individual in this case didn't die( although he almost did).


Last edited by Jon Davidson on Wed 15 Jun - 3:16; edited 1 time in total
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 19:50

Injuring these snakes just for the purpose to act with'em like a tomfool in a cheap, circus-like merritment isn't debatable in my opinion.
I cannot see any educational value here - or at most a counterprocuctive one.

Leave'em charged with all their weapons and possibilities, accept'em as they are, or switch to Cornsnakes (sorry to the Cornsnakes)

regards
Peter

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Albert J. Montejo
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PostSubject: Re: Bad News From The U.S.   Thu 9 Jun - 21:51

Science is defined as a cold mathematical logic applied to a subject matter, in the hope of validating or ivalidating a common statement or belief.

Emotions nor ethics can coexsist with science especially when debating an advance surgical procedure performed by a surgeon as in the case of a masectomy performed on a women , then an implants procedure for asthetics, if desired, and even an emergency blood transfusion , frowned upon by certain religion not excluding muslims.

Agriculture is also a science, as are agricultural products, the question, is a cow or a tuna fish any less alive, then a reptile, these last two examples we human breed to serve us.

Ahh, yes.... the growing pains, of being human, moving forward ...


Throughly, enjoying the robust debate,

Albert.

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