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 Vipera ammodytes length

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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Vipera ammodytes length   Sat 4 Sep - 8:23

Hello all,
I'd like to share two photos of my adult V. a. montandoni pair. The measurement isn't done superproperly, so let's say both vipers are about 80cm long. What are Your experiences with length in V. ammodytes? In a familiar thread, our friend Tiberiu said that the montandoni usually grow up to 55-60cm. That was quite a new information for me and I ended up confused, again knowing nothing about the length of ammodytes subspecies, lol. :-D Anyone?
Best regards,
Maciej

The CD is 124mm (the shorter side):



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Peter van Issem
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PostSubject: Re: Vipera ammodytes length   Sat 4 Sep - 13:21

The lenght of dif. ammodytes ssp. and populations varies like we all know. I found gravied Island ,,meridionalis´´ on the greec island of Ios with a lenght of 28 cm. In Terraria the Island forms grow up to more than 60 cm.
I have seen WC V.a.montandoni (Dobrudscha-Romania) that was not over 60cm, but the offsprings from them grows up to more than 70 cm. We can not compare WC animals to CB animals! The live under other Conditions. The amout of food in CB snakes is much higher than for the most free living specimens. So, we have to seperate first CB or wild ones.
The sizes in Literature mostly deals with mesurements on WC snakes.
Thats in my opinion the only we can work with. Than everybody feeds not the same quantity to their snakes, so that we can not compare this. Some people feed twice a week some only all 14days....and than how much each time?
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Vipera ammodytes length   Sat 4 Sep - 17:35

Hello Maciej,

As Peter writes, there can be a big difference between wc specimens and those that were raised in captivity. Both, Peter and Tiberiu are right about the size of V. ammod. meridionalis and montandoni.

I know populations of V. a. ammodytes in Montenegro that don´t grow bigger than 45-50 cm in nature but their offspring can get up to 80 cm (females) respectively 90 cm (males)long. In other populations this is similar. Under natural conditions, in general, apart from certain populations, V. a. ammodytes grow bigger than V. ammodytes meridionalis or montandoni. And in V. a. ammod., northern populations usually can grow bigger than southern ones. I have seen many males (growing bigger than females in nature) in Austria, Slovenia and northern Croatia having 85 - 90 cm. The maximum size I found in the wild was an adult male in Austria measuring 1,04 m. This animal was obviously very old.
I raised several northern Croatian V. a. ammod. and some of the males were 90 cm long in their fourth year without being fat. One of the photos shows 3 brothers from one litter at age 2 1/2 years, the other one is the red one at age 3 years with about 80 cm, you can see that he is not obese. The grey one looks overfed because he had a big meal the day before I took the photo. A friend of mine has him now and he is about 1 m. long, the red one has about 95 cm, the yellow one is smaller.






Cheers,
Rainer
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Daniel Claesson
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PostSubject: Re: Vipera ammodytes length   Sat 4 Sep - 19:56

Rainer Fesser

WOW, stunning animals.. The red male is out of this world.

As i wrote in another thread, my meridionalis is much smaller than my ammodytes of the same age. They are also much bulkier (hope that is the right word). And they seem to grow much slower. This is seen on all my snakes. I have a group of 4.2 meridionalis and 2.2 ammodytes.

It's very interesting i think. I'm curious to see how it is in a couple years.

I have seen CB meridionalis that has been close to 1m, the snake was if i don't remember wrong around 16 years old.

Regards
Daniel
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Vipera ammodytes length   Sun 5 Sep - 0:07

Hello Daniel,

.....The red male is out of this world. - You are right, I think so whenever I see him (or some of his offspring or other specimens coming from this bloodline).

It is also true that most V. amm. meridionalis are much bulkier than V. a. amm. Here too you can find huge specimens (also depending on where they originate from), especially if they have been raised in captivity but average size is much less than in (northern) V. a. ammodytes.
I had V. a. meridionalis with 90 cm. but they were exceptions whereas in many V. a. ammod. from certain populations this is quite common.
In one of my research areas in northern Croatia, I have been watching about 100 V. a. amm. for 21 years now at 2 hibernation dens. 2 of the older males have been there in 1989 as adults already. One of them is 90 cm. long now (a part of the tail is missing), the other one 95. And they still don´t look as if they were very old. They still fight and breed and are in perfect condition.

Best regards,
Rainer
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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Re: Vipera ammodytes length   Sun 5 Sep - 0:36

Hello,
Thank You Guys for the answers. So could we say that if You are going to keep captive bred ammodytes, You have to be aware that any subspecies can reach 90cm? And there are no "dwarf-localities", as babies from such parents can grow up to these 90cm anyways?
Cheers,
Maciej

EDIT: Rainer, this male... Is insane. I'd like to get one like that someday... Really, congrats on him. :-)
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Bostjan Kraner
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PostSubject: Re: Vipera ammodytes length   Sun 5 Sep - 1:18

Hello.

Like Reiner said Slovenian Vipera Ammodytes grows 85-90 cm. I my younger age i saw a specimen mesuring over 90 cm, maybe 100 cm. He was a real giant and never again i saw this long Vipera Ammodytes. Average length are arround 60-80 cm.

Regards, BKK
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Vipera ammodytes length   Sun 5 Sep - 17:52

Hello Maciej,

And there are no "dwarf-localities", as babies from such parents can grow up to these 90cm anyways? - You cannot say so in general. I know V. ammodytes from some islands or isolated populations from inland that remain very small in nature (some with the biggest specimens not over 40 cm.) that can get very big if you raise them from baby in captivity and I know other populations where the animals are as small in nature and don´t grow over 60 cm in captivity under the same conditions as the other ones. And this remains also if you breed them over generations.
Thus, from my experience, it is also a matter of population where the animals come from.

Bostian:
I did not want to say, Austrian V. a. ammod. grow bigger than (northern) Slovenian ones. The average size is about the same, I have seen ones with over 90 cm. in both areas, the outstanding male in Austria really was an exception. I think there may be ones like him or maybe bigger ones. I was told about a male having 1,1 m. but ????. I think that was exaggerated as I knew that place (west of Ljubljana) very well. I used to go there every spring, watching about 200 V. a. ammod. in front of their hibernation den. The biggest ones there were about 90 cm. long, average length in males there was just under 80 cm, in females 70-75. The pity is that this population does not exist any longer, the whole area is buried under concrete and asphalt now.

Regards,
Rainer
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Bostjan Kraner
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PostSubject: Re: Vipera ammodytes length   Mon 6 Sep - 3:14

Hello Rainer.

It's the same with my places. There were a lot of V.Ammodytes once. Now it's very dificult to find them. I know a few places between Dravodrad and Maribor in Slovenia where they are still numerous and nobody bothers them. I have to go take some pictures once. I don't see them in sizes they used to attain also. Even more difficult is to find Vipera Berus. To see them you have to go to the mountains on higher altitudes and have a lot of luck.

I can send you locations to some sites if you want to check it out when you are in Slovenia. I don't tell people where they are because everyone wants to collect them and when locals find out they,...well you get the picture.

Regards, BKK
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Vipera ammodytes length   Tue 7 Sep - 18:51

Hello Bostjan,

thank you for the offer concerning locations. You can be absolutely sure that I will not take any snake from there and also that nobody will be led to these places by me. Maybe we can go to some place(s) together? I live quite close to the Slovenian border in Styria. I too know some locations with V. ammodytes in the valley of the Drava river and even in Maribor. Most of them became less suitable for reptiles over the years because people no longer use bushes for firewood and the places become too shady. This problem is the same in parts of Croatia and Italy.

You are absolutely right about keeping "your" locations a secret. I know too many places (especially in Austria where many populations of V. ammod. are quite isolated) where this species has been wiped out almost or even totally by collectors.

Vipera berus (berus) in Slovenia are not too hard to find but not close to Maribor. There are quite good populations in the mountains of NW-Slowenia. In one of those places V. amm. and V. aspis overlap and up the mountains V. berus borders to these 2 species in the more humid places.

Best regards,
Rainer
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