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 Scientific and common names

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Fabian Dirks
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 2:46

Perhaps it would be useful also to accept something and not discuss everything. In my home I create my rules, so perhaps the team of a board have his own rules, we have to accept
And maybe someone can tell me the right scientific name if I speak of Brown Snakes or Catsnakes.
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Martin Romanov
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 3:00

Roland Lautensack wrote:
Gabby, Mr Green, Purps, MrBrown, MrSniffels, Boomer, FingerRotters, PogoSticks,
just a few.

use the scientific name for the viewiers and the trivials for him self. Thats what my impression is. And theres nothing wrong with that. Just a bit more personal. And yes, he just use trivials for his "special snakes".

Quote :
just as I would expect that there are likely dozens of pet arachnid keeping forums where such terminology would be acceptable.

Maybe I interpreted too much into this but for a german it surely can interpreted like "trivial names are not welcome here, use one of the other boards".

Martin
Do you have the permition to use that picture of the c.insularis or is this your snake? Cool

Actually I have...
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David Nixon
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 6:09

Hi all,

I'll be honest, I really do like this forum, it demonstrates a wealth of knowledge and I have many friends on here. But guys, I have friends who are well respected herpetologists and have probably forgotten more than many of us know - I've heard them all using the 'forbidden' words from time to time.

I always use scientific names, and try to write in a 'proper' fashion, but I see no harm in using some of the above nicknames for snakes, we are human beings not science-bots!

Yes we should all respect the admin board, and those who enforce the rules, but it's a public forum, and surly you can't expect everybody to adhere to such inflexible boundaries...

@ Martin - I think Roland made an obvious mistake, lets allow him to appeal death row on this occasion Very Happy

Lets keep this forum how it's always been - professional but fun!


Cheers,

Dave
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 6:39

Quote :
@ Martin - I think Roland made an obvious mistake, lets allow him to appeal death row on this occasion

Hmmm... Big sign of interrogation.. Laughing

BTW: Sorry my bad... Don`t understand the meaning of something is loss of quality. Sorry.


Last edited by Roland Lautensack on Sun 29 Aug - 8:38; edited 1 time in total
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 6:41

Roland Lautensack wrote:
Show us scientific Papers or be quiet.

Please Mr. Lautensack, choose one of my following two comments, the one that fits for You:

1. What an impressive and fundamental argument. We all can learn so much from Your always laid back and scientific comment style!

2. What a lousy and inadequate statement!

In case You select #1 please tell me if it would be acceptable for You that I (as having no papers, well at least no zoological papers) immediately delete all my posts and comments?

Kind regards,
Guenter
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Peter Schulze Niehoff
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 6:46

Richard Mastenbroek wrote:
Peter Zürcher wrote:
Did you ever get a "bitie" from your "annies" or "snouties"?

I have been bit bij Naja annulifera 10 years ago it was a horrible experience and happend when she twisted when treated on a eye problem so on off her fangs stuck in my rigth hand tumb. I got invenomted and it was a horrible expierience nothing to be proud on but these things can happen and is always a mistake from the keeper not the snake.

I have a serious reputation among venomouskeepers around the globe as I said before many feel very safe with me handling snakes.
Just because I got nailed 10 years ago you can not say I have a loss of seriousity. ...

Sorry Rich, I think you didn't get the point.

Of course, working with venomous snakes every day, one could get bitten the one or other time. That's not what should happen, and nothing to be proud of. But in the end, if everything went well, no problem at all (ok, ask your doctor about this ...Rolling Eyes ).
In Peter's mind, and in this point I absolutely agree with him, herpetoculturists and especially hotkeepers should try to get a serious reputation which of course doesn't work by giving our snakes sweet pet names (or by getting shown in cheap tv "doku" shows or newspaper articles). The animals we deal with are not cute or sweet, but wild and more or less potential deadly creatures and for a serious herper, there should be no reason, to treat them as harmless.

Good night

Peter


edit:

@Rich: OK, maybe you got the point.
@Peter: Maybe you should quote what you refer to, if there's no general thing but a special post you think about.
@all: Ok, maybe one should read the whole thread before answering ...
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 7:35

Quote :
In case You select #1 please tell me if it would be acceptable for You that I (as having no papers, well at least no zoological papers) immediately delete all my posts and comments?

You will not get the bliss, seeing me choose Nr.2... so.. feel free to do what ever you want to do...

Quote :
herpetoculturists and especially hotkeepers should try to get a serious reputation

A few eccentrics that struggles about the name of an animal and definite seriousness through exhorting people to use scientific names of snakes... That, for sure, is the right way.
Rolling Eyes


And BTW: Is it the same if I write: "Peters King"? Isn`t that exactly the same? Why Peter does not have criticed that? It should be called "Peters Ophiophagus".... Laughing Belittlement don`t work here... "Peters Kingiis"...

Spoiler:
 
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Bostjan Kraner
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 8:02

Hello

I think that all members of this forum think seriously about snakes. Well most of them. I joined venomland because of confusion on internet where wrong names are put to the wrong pictures. This forum offered me something what no other did. I've started to respect most of you, reding your posts, comenting on different subjects,... I found here most accurate information about snakes. Also of course the best pictures. I even remember a lot of first names from some of you. I don't know the names for all people that I know or work with. First thing I've seen was very scientific view and I liked it. So far you all offered very good support and great source of information and it's an honor for me to be a member. But this is the first 'serious' argument I've seen and makes me wonder what was the real cause. I hope that the heat will pass and everybody will forget about it soon. It's hard to judge who started what and it's not even inportant. What should be inportant is the cause everybody had to join venomland. I did not read the rules, I just write allways the same and everywhere I am a member I write my true name. There must be a professional aspect on herpatology, you should see forums in Slovenia (no comment). This forum is professional and we all should act like it. But i still think that this was not so bad mistake and can be forgotten. Everybody got the point.

Kind regards to all, BKK
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 12:26

I am still confused why this is even a problem.... a community can remain scientific and serious without sacrificing personal affection for their animals. As far as I am concerned it is FAR more disrespectful to your animals to not even acknowledge them as an individual and simply refer to them by their proper terminology... as though they are nothing more than subject for your amusement.
Call me a "pet keeper" if you must but I am affection for all my animals and when I keep venomous I will love them just as much and they will all have names.
And for the record... just because something is cute doesn't make it any less deadly or serious... I think everything is cute... baby crocodilians are about as cute as they come... until I saw baby cobras... freakin adorable! almost all small tree viper species are enough to make my heart melt as well. they are just cute... does that mean I don't take them seriously? Of course not. This is still an animal that can take my life, and I have the utmost respect for all of them, but that wont stop me from standing at a safe distance and oogling over the cute little worms.
As long as all the proper procedures are followed, it really shouldn't be an issue....
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Ari Finsk
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 16:55

Probably I should not to join this discussion at all because I´m a "rookie" with venomous and this site, but ;

Gabby, Mr Green, Purps, MrBrown, MrSniffels, Boomer, FingerRotters, PogoSticks

Some of these don´t say anything to rookies and starts a hell of googling ... and after that there may still be some common names wich don´t say anything to rookies ... all of us know that those common names changes by countries ...

Wouldn´t be easier to use those scientific names and if it is "needed" also their common names.

Have a good and peacefull day

rgds
Ari Finsk


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Israel M. Sánchez
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 18:05

I see three different discussions melted here.

-The 'cutie' thing: I do not think that calling cutie to a e.g. baby cobra means that the lethal danger of this animal is being donwsized or misunderstood by the person that uses that term. A baby lion is cute for the 100% of the people, and has the potential to rip you off... I respect this board so much and I understand that all its members are serious enough with their animals to recognize their potentially lethal power and act accordingly despite of the names or calificatives they use to refer to their animals.
- The vernacular / scientific name: well, I am biologist myself and work on Systematics, so the Latin names of the taxa are my daily bread... I do not see that the use of a vernacular name (which can be extremely variable) is incorrect as long as the proper scientific name is spelled next to it. You can see that situation even in scientific papers; in fact, I have been asked to do so in certain international journals in order to make the paper more understandable to the casual reader. So, as long as the Latin name appears, for me is OK.
- The third point (and more important): board rules. Nothing of the stated above has any sense if the board owners /admins declare that the use of vernacular names is prohibited.

In any case, this continues to be for me a great and very respected forum, cuties or not cuties along the way.

And great cobras, by the way.

Live long and prosper Smile




Last edited by Israel M. Sánchez on Sat 28 Aug - 19:51; edited 3 times in total
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Wolfgang Wüster
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 19:22

We should also not forget that there are cultural differences beween countries in how snakes are discussed. In the German-speaking countries, there is a perhaps stronger tendency to adhere to "correct" names, whereas in other places, (e.g. South Africa, Australia), diminutives like "snoutie" (Naja annulifera), puffie (Bitis arietans) or kingie (Pseudechis australis) are much more commonly used, and don't imply lack of respect for the very real danger posed by the annimals. I certainly routinely use terms like that in conversation myself... and given that the title of Richard's post included the scientific name, I don't see a big problem of lack of seriousness, and moreover, his use of the scientific name ensured that international readers would know what species was discussed irrespective of language.

This is a great forum with many serious and informative posts, and we certainly don't want to lose that - I congratulate the moderators for achieving that! It is not an easy task, and in reality, I probably have next to no idea how hard it really is! But let's not lose the fun part of it either, so long as posts are clear and serious in their general nature.

Just a few thoughts...
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Israel M. Sánchez
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 19:56

Wolfgang Wüster wrote:
This is a great forum with many serious and informative posts, and we certainly don't want to lose that - I congratulate the moderators for achieving that! It is not an easy task, and in reality, I probably have next to no idea how hard it really is! But let's not lose the fun part of it either, so long as posts are clear and serious in their general nature.

+1
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 21:20

Wolfgang,

thank you!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 21:22

great post wolfgang cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sat 28 Aug - 21:47

Stephan Niemann wrote:
great post wolfgang cheers

+1
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sun 29 Aug - 1:22

Thanks Wolfgang!

Though we obviously do not agree in all terms on the topic, Your post shows that a discussion can be performed in a respectful and sober way without getting too personal.

No need to tell somebody to "be quiet" or interpreting a different opinion as "a personal war".

And that's what is distracting me most from the Gentlemen Richard and Roland.
(I admit that myself too is sometimes to cynical - I will try to work on that.)

Besides that, the forum rules from Mario are clear (only scientific names) and that is what a moderator has to moderate - and Mr. Zürcher did exactly this.
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sun 29 Aug - 1:33

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:
Thanks Wolfgang!

Though we obviously do not agree in all terms on the topic, Your post shows that a discussion can be performed in a respectful and sober way without getting too personal.

No need to tell somebody to "be quiet" or interpreting a different opinion as "a personal war".

And that's what is distracting me most from the Gentlemen Richard and Roland.
(I admit that myself too is sometimes to cynical - I will try to work on that.)

Besides that, the forum rules from Mario are clear (only scientific names) and that is what a moderator has to moderate - and Mr. Zürcher did exactly this.

Excuse me Guenter,

Peter never and never posts anthing at m photos or comments. I place some pictures of m Snouted cobras (Naja annulifera and he makes bite suggestions and makes a attack on m way of speaking with common names. And I always use the scientifname in my post. And nothing in my post made these snake look like they are not dangerous.
So please don't tell me that it is not a one sided personal war.

I don't mind at the end it gives a nice discussion like we have now. ANd if I do not like it anymore I move the mouse to the little cross in the rigth corner and shutdown Venomland till thev next time.

@ the forum

So again or make a venomland house rule that only scientificnames are being used or a combination of common name and scientificname.
And than continue about something normal and informative because I think when newbies on the forum will read this topic they are not register as they are scared to be fired as they make a mistake in naming or maybe ask the wrong question.
A semi-scientific forum is a great thing and this forum is! or can be. But sutdents graduate so new people visit this forum to lets keep it open to all.
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Guenter Leitenbauer
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sun 29 Aug - 1:43

Richard Mastenbroek wrote:
So please don't tell me that it is not a one sided personal war.

Richard, You wrote this a couple of times now, and infinite repetition does not add to the amount of truth. I know Peter Zürcher quite well (and personally) and can assure You that there is no war. We talked about this the last days when I visited him for some photos. It would be helpful for the forum if You could accept the facts.

Kind regards,
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sun 29 Aug - 3:42

Hi,

don`t interpret my "be quiet" in a hard way. It should sound more like "don`t fly to high.. suns hot.." Laughing

Quote :
That could be because you don't have the background, experience or the years of commitment to the study of venomous snakes as many of the members who participate on Venomland do.


It`s just the point that some people think "studying snakes" makes them different. But if you look deeper in the true meaning of this form of "studying" it`s not even half of that what "studying something" really is.

This, as a example, is a result of studying:
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jvatitd/v11n1/a06v11n1.pdf
Laughing

This:
http://www.herp-science.de/ag/schlangen/schlangenhaltung/haltung_cerastes.pdf

Is a nice article. But has nothing to do with stuyding.

BTW: I do not know many people that build up such nice setups like Richard does it. Absolutely natural and much people can learn from his way of creating minihabitats.

BTWII: Yep. Truth is hard....



Last edited by Roland Lautensack on Sun 29 Aug - 8:36; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sun 29 Aug - 7:59

Guenter Leitenbauer wrote:
Thanks Wolfgang!

Though we obviously do not agree in all terms on the topic, Your post shows that a discussion can be performed in a respectful and sober way without getting too personal.

No need to tell somebody to "be quiet" or interpreting a different opinion as "a personal war".

And that's what is distracting me most from the Gentlemen Richard and Roland...


...Besides that, the forum rules from Mario are clear (only scientific names) and that is what a moderator has to moderate - and Mr. Zürcher did exactly this.
I agree completely; and Thank you for making this point so clearly and succinctly, Mr. Leitenbauer. Sincerely, Jon Davidson .
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sun 29 Aug - 8:18

This barometer shows how things here work.. It`s not voting quality its about sympathy.. Maybe someone of the enlightend ones could delete my account. Thanks.

P.Zürcher is one of the persons I would paste to the ignorelist if its possible. I had troubles with him in more than one boards and he registrated in a spider board just to find out more about my history after he was searching for trouble with me in his arrogant way.... What else more to say about his personality? if he thinks marking my comments red than feel free to do so. Mark all threads red, Delete this account and everyone is happy. Evil or Very Mad
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sun 29 Aug - 17:16

Quote :
if he thinks marking my comments
it wasn't me, Mr. Lautensack - could it be possible that more than one User here did not agree with your friendly statements?

Thanks to everybody here trying to discuss this delicate issue in a friendly, factual way.

I like the statements of Wolfgang and Israel, even if i do not agree in all parts.

Wolfgang's right with other places like South Africa or Australia.
In german speaking countries we have indeed a strenger tendency to "correct" names, as he wrote.
Maybe i see it to much from an european sight, where the venomous section has been grown to a "unhealthy" size with numerous idiots and the (unfortunately not existing) european venomous keepers community is in a fight against more and more upcoming laws and restrictions. Some german forums forbid the use of abbreviations or belittlements like "Köpy", "Barti" or "Terri".
It has never been said here that the use of common names or belittlements implies the lack of respect in experienced keepers using these terms here - but it could have this effect in public.
There's no problem with usual common names like snoutie or puffie, if these terms are commonly used and well known, and if they're in combination with scientific names.
Further in my opinion it's a matter of dosage - i don't want to see this board overflooded with puffies, spitties and so on.
And, @ Richard, think about this and be honest - "annie" instead of annulifera is not a common name at all and another downward step - i hope you can agree.
I we all could agree to use only established common names as saving as possible and only in combination with scientific names, and not tu use malapropisms of scientific names, i, and hopefully more of you, will be satisfied.
Thank you!

Best regards
Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sun 29 Aug - 17:32

@Peter Zürcher

Quote :
@ Richard, think about this and be honest - "annie" instead of annulifera is not a common name at all and another downward step - i hope you can agree.

I do not agree with that but respect your thougths about it and can understand the problem you've got with it.
So there is only one more thing to say for me.

Great post, I agree totally with you in this and think, this is a nice ending of this discussion and all is clear. That the best thing for the forum is use the scientificname alone or in Combination with a Established common name.

with kind regards

Richard Mastenbroek
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PostSubject: Re: Scientific and common names   Sun 29 Aug - 20:09

When I see "Annie" I assume anaconda... as that is how we shorten their names in my end of the woods, not sure about other places. But thats another example of colloquialisms differing between countries and, as i said before, including scientific names as well clears up all misunderstandings
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