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 Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.

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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Thu 20 May - 7:53

Hello there,

I recently got a nice trio from a friend, take a look.





Unfortunately I'm not sure about the subspecies, and that is my question. Any guesses here? I'll add some better shots soon, if needed (well, I'll add them anyway ;-)).

The request is: Is anybody in possession of a key to Vipera ammodytes subspecies? I have a paper - "The Snakes of Europe by G. A. Boulenger", but I'd like to know if something aiming more on european vipers ever came into existence.

Thanks in advance & take care,
Maciej
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Michal Pecak
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Thu 20 May - 8:08

your friend doesn't happen to have more of these ammodytes for sale? Smile
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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Thu 20 May - 8:25

Nope. That's the only trio... I had plans to buy nine of them, though. :-D
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Michal Pecak
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Thu 20 May - 16:03

Smile
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Peter Schulze Niehoff
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Thu 20 May - 16:49

Maciej Pokrywka wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not sure about the subspecies, and that is my question. Any guesses here?

Dear Maciej,

those nice ones should belong to the southernmost subspecies, Vipera ammodytes meridionalis, as the greenish-yellowish tailtip and the pronounced nose-horn suggest.

Regards

Peter
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Thu 20 May - 17:00

I can't wait any longer to photograph them, probably I will share some pics of them then.
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Richard Blok
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Thu 20 May - 18:01

I think also that it is vipera ammodytes meridionalis,like color,nose tail.
It,s a very nice species,you can post more foto,s of them cause they are lovely.

Regard richard
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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Fri 21 May - 1:24

Thank You guys, that was also my guess, but I wanted to know what You think... Still looking for the key though. :-)
Cheers,
Maciej
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Fri 21 May - 3:10

Hello Maciej,

they are definitely meridionalis.

There is a book about European Vipers by Johan De Smedt (The Vipers of Europe, 2006, Edition: Johan De Smedt) and a book about European snakes (The Snakes of Europe, Guido Kreiner, 2007, Edition Chimaira). Both are available in English and German.

Both will bring you more of the information you need than the "old" Boulenger.

Good luck with these youngsters,

Rainer
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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Fri 21 May - 4:50

Hello Rainer,
Thank You for this information, I'll look for these books for sure - are they common enough? Which one would You say is "better"?
Take care,
Maciej
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Fri 21 May - 17:24

Hello Maciej,

I cannot say which one of the books is better for you. It mainly depends upon what you want.
The one about Vipers (Johan De Smedt) has 340 pages , only about European Vipers, the one written by Guido Kreiner (317 pages) is about all known European species of snakes west of the Kaukasus. Both have lots of photos, including habitat-views, both have descriptions for identification of subspecies, those about V. ammod. subspecies are more detailed in the book about Vipers.

Cheers,
Rainer
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Peter Schulze Niehoff
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Fri 21 May - 17:56

Hello Maciej,

I do have the German edition of both of them. Although I'm not sure about that, I guess the content of the english issues would be more or less the same.
Guido Kreiners The Snakes of Europe gives (more than just) an overview about the distribution and natural history of the european snakes, while Johan de Smedts The Vipers of Europe also covers their (as Rainer pointed out, only vipers) captive care.

As far as I noticed you will go to Hamm next month. Just visit Chimairas Herp-Bookstore there and take a look at both titles do decide which one fits most for your concern.

Regards

Peter


Last edited by Peter Schulze Niehoff on Fri 21 May - 23:24; edited 1 time in total
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Fri 21 May - 19:57

Hello Maciej,

The German and English Edition of G. Kreiner´s book are the same concerning contents, the English edition of J. De Smedt´s book is a revision of the (older) German one and is much better, having much more content and more photos.

Regards,
Rainer
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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Sat 22 May - 4:03

Hello Rainer, hello Peter,
Thank You very much for these answers, I think I'll buy "The Vipers Of Europe" first, as I'm more into vipers than the non-venomous. However, the time will come for the second book for sure.
Best regards,
Maciej
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Patrick Waffek
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Mon 14 Jun - 1:57

Maciej,

These are very nice ammodytes.
What about the greenish animals you told me?

Would like to see a picture of them.

Thank you.
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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Mon 14 Jun - 2:05

Hello Patrick,
I said that my Skutari ammodytes have greenish tints on their backs. As for now, it seems to develop with every shed, but I haven't taken any photos of them lately. Here is the topic, You can see how they looked like recently -http://www.venomland.net/photography-f19/vipera-ammodytes-scutari-lake-locality-t2026.htm They are still young, so one can't really tell what colour they will turn to.
Best regards,
Maciej
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pierre-yves vaucher
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Tue 31 Aug - 12:55

SORRY BUT I SEE ONE THING: THE AMMODYTES OF THE SECOND PICTURE HAS THE RIGHT EYE BLIND... I had 2 orange meridionalis with the same problem, curious... this eye is in constant mydriasis
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Tue 31 Aug - 15:55

Hello Maciej. Nice trio you got there. Do you know if these 3 are from the same locality?
The male is Vipera ammodytes meridionalis 100% but the other 2 have a striking resemblance to Vipera ammodytes montandoni, except the dorsal zig-zag which is more rounded at the edges, typical for meridionalis. A confirmation of the locality would help a lot.
Also, you can take a look at these papers for more info:
Tomovic, L., Dzukic, G. 2003. Geographic variability and taxonomy of the nose-horned
viper, Vipera ammodytes (L. 1758), in the central and eastern parts of the Balkans: A multivariate study. Amph.-Rept. 24: 359 – 377.
Tomovic, L. 2006. Systematics of the nose-horned viper (Vipera ammodytes Linnaeus, 1758). Herp. Journ. 16: 191 – 201.
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Tiberiu Sahlean
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Tue 31 Aug - 16:18

Here are some photos of Vipera ammodytes montandoni as reference:

Female from terra-typica - Greci, Macin Mountains, Romania:


Juvenile male, probably born the year before, same locality:


Male, opaque phase, just out of hibernation - Hagieni Forest, Dobrodja, Romania:
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George Faitatzoglou
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Tue 31 Aug - 17:14

From my experience on Greek reptiles, I have seen many in wild and captivity.

Its 100% Ammodytes meridionalis.

The very green tail and the dorsal zig-zag look very familiar to me.

Also I don't know the line in European cb meridionalis, but here in Greece I have seen very big difference in meridionalis from dorsals and coloration.
If I was in the studies I will have over 50 meridionalis localities .
In each place I have seen meridionalis with thin zig-zag and with very fat one from place to place. I can't believe that all this is just coincidence. study

Also my mate has seen a very pink and red coloration in one specimen.
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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Tue 31 Aug - 18:41

Hello,
I'm pretty sure they are all V. a. meridionalis, they all come form the same parents. I have an adult montandoni pair at the moment also. Thanks for the interest. :-)

@Pierre-yves vaucher: Thanks for the info, this is indeed an interesting thing to look at! I have no ability to check them now, as I feed them yesterday night (all took grown ratpups without any problems). Did You observe any complications due to this eye affection in Your meridionalis?

Take care,
Maciej
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Tiberiu Sahlean
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Tue 31 Aug - 18:44

Oh, ok then, that clears everything up Very Happy . Good luck with them, they will be just as feisty as montandoni.

Regards,
Tiberiu!
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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Tue 31 Aug - 18:47

TiberiuSahly wrote:
Good luck with them, they will be just as feisty as montandoni.

Thank You Tiberiu, the male is eating like a machine (adult mice at the moment) and growing like a lightning! The females are more shy.
Cheers,
Maciej
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Daniel Claesson
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Wed 1 Sep - 18:50

Interesting thread.

I also keep V.a. meridionalis from two different localities in Greece. One of the males that i have is almost "gold colored" a real stunner.

He is in sheed right know and as soon as thats done i will take pictures and you all can have a look at him Very Happy

I don't know if i'm wrong here but i find that at least the meridionalis i have is much smaller than the ammodytes ammodytes i have of the same age. The have got the same amount of food so that shouldn't be a big factor.

The meridionalis is about 40-45 cm at the age of two and the ammodytes ammodytes is about 60-65 at the same age and growing like weed. The meridionalis haven't grown much this year.

Is meridionalis often smaller than ammodytes ammodytes ?

Regards
Daniel
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Maciej Pokrywka
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PostSubject: Re: Ammodytes: A few photos, a question, a request.   Wed 1 Sep - 19:27

Daniel Claesson wrote:

Is meridionalis often smaller than ammodytes ammodytes ?

Well, I'm not an expert or anything, just a huge ethusiast so far, but I also have the same feeling. From what I have seen and experienced, most of the meridionalis I've seen and worked with were smaller (often stumpier instead) than the nominal ammodytes or montandoni. Coincidence?

Cheers,
Maciej
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