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 Bitis parviocula offspring

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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Bitis parviocula offspring   Tue 15 Apr - 0:33

I would do almost everything for just one pair of these snakes, this guy owns about twenty of them,
and now a hole bunch of juveniles too.
Have a look at this video:
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=z4UqvuesCvI
Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Tue 15 Apr - 3:11

I friend of mine informed about this... Wow...
Al is a lucky guy ! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Tue 15 Apr - 5:30

There are some for sale on Kingsnake.com for $3000 each.
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Wed 16 Apr - 16:44

Quote :
Al is a lucky guy !

Perhaps he's going to be unlucky soon:
I've been reading in a german forum that US Fish and Wildlife and US Customs have started investigations. These Bitis parviocula have been smuggled out from Ethiopia, due to the "Lacey Act", he could get punished in the United States for breaking foreign rules in animal trade, as far as I know.
Maybe our US members here do know more about it?
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Wed 16 Apr - 17:05

Okay...I didn't know that !
Let's se where this goes to ? Neutral
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Wed 16 Apr - 17:27

did someone knows when he brought the animals in?
i would be very interested to see if this was captive breeding or not, as it would be the first time Bitis parviocula has been breed in captivity so far i know.

again, every medal has to sites right, one is the breeding success another one is the illegal trade! i am not sure if Fish and Wildlife would prosecute if somebody breaks a foreign law, but i am sure they will use the case to make a point and confiscate the animals if that is true... friends of mine, think - if they really start a investigation - then they should be able to do somethings...

well, i hope for Al - everything was clean and nothing will happen to lessen his breeding success (if it was indeed cb)!


cheers
Mario

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PostSubject: Hello Folks   Wed 16 Apr - 18:12

Can't imagine that this went all with legal papers and stuff. It's not that difficult to get them exported as WC Bitis arietans.

Would also love to get some animals, but definitely not the illegal way, and not 8 or 10 animals - would be happy with 1.1-2.2. That's enough to work with....

It's not a captive breeding success by himself, the oviously have been mating while they where transported on the way to AL, this is what he posted on another Forum.

In the end it's only money making and has nothing to do with animal love or something, If I had 20 or 30 Babies for sale, I definitely wouldn't ask 3'000 Dollars per animal. That's too much...

Think 1'000 or 1'500 USD per animal would be more then enough...especially when you think about how cheap they can be organised in Ethiopia. About 2 years ago I have had an offer from someone overthere, which offerd me 5 adult WC animals for 200-250 USD/each.

Just my two cents

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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Wed 16 Apr - 23:52

Quote :
i am not sure if Fish and Wildlife would prosecute if somebody breaks a foreign law,

They can, and they will...

US Lacey Act, part of amendments of 1981:

Under this law, it is unlawful to import, export, sell, acquire, or purchase fish, wildlife or plants taken, possessed, transported, or sold: 1) in violation of U.S. or Indian law, or 2) in interstate or foreign commerce involving any fish, wildlife, or plants taken possessed or sold in violation of State or foreign law.

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Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Thu 17 Apr - 3:20

We have made a deal with Al in past, and everything was ok and in legal way. He is looking just for legal deals, so I would be surprised if this case is different one... I was waiting with response to this thread as I wanted to find out more about it, but now it`s a time. Al answered on all above mentioned questions by self. Here is a copy of it:

"They has been wide spread accusations and rumors regarding the legality of the importation of this species, none of which is factual. I had to go to great lengths and to have USF&WS offical Special Agent in charge re-examine all of the importation documents. This morning he again declared that everything was perfectly legal with the importation of this species. This is why I have not answered this post till now. I wanted his investigation at my request to be finished. He was taking the unprecidented step of contacting the several suspects we believe had motive to start this rumor. He was going to tell them to stop this bull sh!t, my words not his but you get the idea."

According to price, I don`t think Al is doing it for money. He offered for 3000.00 USD each just juveniles and adults which he imported during last summer, and took care for them since then. I think everybody would ask the same money without any doubt and problems! There were more parvioculas for sale in past, most of them died, as most of you know. In Hamm 2-3 years ago they offered them for sale for 3000.00 Eur each! I think nobody can be surprised with this price. If somebody is asking for Pied Ball Python 25 000.00 USD, why not ask 3000.00 USD for parviocula!!! Question
Babies are different case, and especially if Al will get more babies from remaining females, the price should be different. His words about it are: "I am selling a yet determined number of babies for $1500usd each. I will also entertain trades (legal ones of course) or a combination of the two." That answers everything as well.... I think our hobby can be thankfull for this possibility, as in this way this species will become available for more people. I am sure many of us were dreaming a long time about it, now it isn`t something what can`t come through... Sooner or later... bounce

I am hoping to put my hands on few of them as well, as this is one very rare occasion and I am so excited about it! The fact, that just 50 cm long female gave a birth to 21 babies is unbelievable. There was breeding in Sweden last year, where 70 cm long female got 6 babies in total! What a different... Sure, I would not pay such money for snakes (even if I would have them), but as we have probably something Al is interested in, we hope to make a nice exchange... We will see how everything finish for us. Btw., if we will get any, they will arrive to us legally affraid

Best regards,
Peter
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Thu 17 Apr - 3:57

Peter Pastor wrote:


I am hoping to put my hands on few of them as well, as this is one very rare occasion and I am so excited about it! The fact, that just 50 cm long female gave a birth to 21 babies is unbelievable.

What suprises me at least as much is that they are all feeding that that well and especially, that soon Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Thu 17 Apr - 4:08

Quote :
According to price, I don`t think Al is doing it for money.

What other motivation should there be? Regarding these prices, it's hard for me to see him as benefactor.

Such prices seem to be a temptation for more smugglers in my eyes, as discussed elsewhere on this forum already; I'm not really happy about it.

One question remains: how did these animals legally come out of the country?
The ethiopian border is, as far as I know, completely closed for endemic animals and plants, no exceptions were made recently.

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Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Thu 17 Apr - 4:19

If anybody of us could have a possibility to get them, would we pass on it? I doubt somebody would... Embarassed

I know there are animals exported from Ethiopia legally for sure, so far I knew just about Geochelone pardalis, Xenagamas, one species of Uromastyx, and few more. So I believe there is a possibility... Maybe this species was added into list too... Al invested money into the deal, and had luck at the end. If could easily finish in different way, and there not written anywhere it can`t change yet... I wish him not to happen it...

Best regards,
Peter P.
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Thu 17 Apr - 4:20

Jelmer Groen wrote:
What suprises me at least as much is that they are all feeding that that well and especially, that soon Smile

Yeaahh, that`s really surprising... One would not believe it... We will see how they will doing in the future...
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Thu 17 Apr - 10:35

good morning guys,

another interesting Topic here, i see there are lots of discussion about the B.parvicola offspring around the world. all boards seem to talk about this. everywhere, from the US To SA, from there to europe - everybody seem to be in parvicola fever. nice, i like this.

the only thing i am worry a bit, if all the discussions about legality and illegality of his importation. you all know me, i am the first, fighting illegal trade here, but can we, at least at VenomLand stop talking about legality of Al´s Bitis import to the states by this time?

i have seen yesterday the Import-Permits from the US Fish and Wildlife, also the Air Way Bill. to me, it looks like he got all Papers he needed to send the animas legally out from ethiopia. i have not seen any Export Permit from the ethiopian gov, but i dont even have any idea if they ar requested or not. the fact, that the animals was shipped from Adis Abbeba Airport with papers (AWB, Import permit) gives me a clue it is all fine there as well. you cant even ship animals here from the airport in manila if there is something wrong with the paperwork's.

so, let wish and wildlife doing their job - if there is something suspicious they will find it, i can assure you that! it is nice that they investigate, whether on Al´s own request or not. legal action will be taken in a proper way, it is not up to us to judge coz we dont know the facts.


i just dont see the point of importing 21 heads! thats a lot of snakes, taken from the wild. and i having a difficult time to believe it was not done because of the business site. also, the permit dates january 18, 2008 - there is just no way the babies are captive breed at all, right - they are captive born. thats it...

about the prices, well thats difficult to make a statement about. fact is, he seems to be the legal owner of the animals - and he makes the prices. the market dictates a bit, but we all know - there was always certain animals expensive and other cheap. the mechanism of prices in reptilians is been very mystic to me anyway. lets see - i think, there is such a big interest in the animals around the world, he would be not having difficulties sailing them. if that is right or not, well thats like with other things in the eye of the viewer.


cheers
Mario

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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Thu 17 Jul - 5:47

Did Al Coritz sell all these babies? Does anybody know of people who bought babies from him and how are they doing with them?
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Tue 10 Nov - 23:09

This Lacey act is pretty interesting if it can be applied to this situation. Any species, endemic to a country that doesn't allow export would be affected. There are (almost) no legally exported reptiles from Brasil, Peru, Kenya, Ethiopia, Australia and lots and lots more...
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Sun 7 Mar - 11:44

Today, i was visiting the Atlanta Zoo and found this beauty. That is one of the must have !! Are there any news of these 2 year old thread ?



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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Sun 7 Mar - 19:04

I try and avoid doing specific favourites, but I have to say that B. parviocula is probably my favourite out of the big Bitis.

I understand this is an old thread, however I do not see how we, as people should have the right to judge, based on possible legal issues when the other person either could not attend, or is not registered on a public forum to deffend theirself.

I have every reason to believe, from word of mouth by several very respected, and experienced venomous keepers, and friends of Mr. Coritz that everything was legal, and above board. I, personally do not see why this debate was even meantioned, as let's face it...it's not our business.

With respect to all, and kind regards,


James
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Sun 7 Mar - 21:07

First of all, James - international wildlife trading - illegal or not - should be the "business" of us all in some way - if you know what i mean. The fact that more and more people are interested in these problems is just a benefaction to wildlife on this planet.
At least, it must be permitted to talk about any activities affecting protecting acts and their enforcement without a muzzle.

If we go to public with any kind of story, we must accept that it might be discussed in public - and no one will be there to ask us if that's okay or not - no one will ask us for a registration on any forums, before the first posting's done.
And this story has been discussed on numerous boards worldwide.

Apart from that, Mr. Coritz did register here - but not until the most posts in the thread were already written.
Unfortunately, he missed to make any statements here.

Finally, i cannot find any final judgements here saying Mr. Coritz did that deal definitely illegal, but the facts that a) he imported about 20 heads of an endemic, strictly protected species from Ethopia
and b) investigations have been made by Fish and Wildlife have given reasons for rumors and speculations.

Best regards
Peter

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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Sun 7 Mar - 22:10

@ James: My question was "Are there any news of these 2 year old thread" These news could be positiv or negativ. And in my opinion, it is interesting for all snake keepers around the world. I was not asking for a judgement at all. I spent more than 300 days a year in the US and was just curious how the Fish and Wildlife will react. Thats all.

@ all: I was posting the pics in this thread, because i do not want to open a new one. Unfortunately i had no chance to talk to one of the keepers there. So i was just injoying my time at the Atlanta Zoo with some nice specimens.
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Mon 8 Mar - 7:31

Peter,


I do see where you are coming from in the regard that it may be of interest to everyone to discuss possible illegal and legal tradings of animals which may effect the hobby.

I have not seen this posted on other boards, so could you please enlighten me? I was unaware of this topic on other Forums.

In my conclusion, we do know that Al did import the animals legally. But, I do not see any good reason for a highly experienced and internationally respected venomous keeper with over 30 years in the industry would risk a fairly large collection, inwhich he has spent so much time and money over for just one species of snake to be "smuggled".

The people who start rumours, are the people who are uneducated, and who do not know pin-point facts. It is those people, that caused the debate, and caused the investigation. Granted, if the rumours were correct, and in some cases with different situations and senarios they are then it would be acceptable. But if folks worked with information directly from one person, instead of information passed on through generations so to speak, then the world would be a better place, and it would prevent the good people from getting slammed. - I am not saying that this was the case in Al getting slammed, I am just using an example.

However, I guess rumours can also help to rat out the "bad cops" too....So, it could be a win/lose thing.


James.
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Mon 8 Mar - 22:59

Hi Everyone:

I seldom have time for hanging out on forums anymore, so I didn't even know this thread exsisted.

First of all let's clear up the rumors.

1) The B. parviocula's I imported in 2008 were done so with the complete blessing of USFWS & their counterparts in Ethiopia. In other words, All of the paperwork was filed and deemed to be authentic. This was double checked with both agencys talking to one another. There was a small quota for the specimens to be exported and I was lucky enough to get them in 2008 and another small group in 2009. Yes, twice, if it was illegal how did I do it twice? I even posted the paperwork online at one point.

2) You can thank the people who started the trouble with these wild claims of smuggled Bitis for the Ethiopian govenment not allowing any additional quotas to be issued. I know who these people are, they are convicted wildlife smugglers who are banned from many countries as a result of their actions.

3) In 20 March 2008 a gravid female gave birth, 20 babies alive at my facility. They all were feeding within 36 hours of birth, which I could hardly believe myself. 15 of those are still alive and doing very well. One of a pair is pictured in the exhibit at Zoo Atlanta. Others are at major zoo's across the USA. NO AZA Zoo would come within 1000km if any of these were thought to be illegally smuggled animals. All of the zoo's that were interested had their legal departments investigate the paperwork regarding their import status.

4) I did not want to keep all of the Parviocula's at my facility because of Fire, Disease, and Theft, so I disbursed 1.1 of them to other places in the USA. Two of those persons/facilities pissed me off by killing the babies under their care. Both environmental issues, one too cold, keeper left the fan on drawing in freezing air from the outside. One too hot, air conditioning went off in the summer because of a power failure and was unaware till it was too late. The results: One cooked pair and one frozen pair. I can excuse the pair lost during a power failure but the ones chilled to death, I would like to take a Puff Adder and apply the pointy end to their testicals.

5) I didn't breed any this year, the economy is bad and I still have one pair left over from 2009 babies. I have others that will be of breeding age soon and have enough different blood lines to hopefully keep the captive population health for a number of generations. I have been approached for trades which I gladly consider. Please, I'm not interested in any Taipans, they really don't interest me. If someone offers me cash, that wins everytime.

6) As for pricing, simple price and demand. It's very risky to send over $50,000 of your money to any country no less Africa. There was always a good chance never to see anything, money or snakes again.
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Tue 9 Mar - 16:54

That clears that up! Smile

Thanks for coming over and discussing it Al.
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Tue 9 Mar - 17:00

I see that if Al has breeding successes in the future, and others, then Bitis parviocula will become more and more available throughout the years in private collections, which will inturn, prevent the illegal, and legal wild caught exports from their natural domain, so as the numbers can (hopefully) re-populate.
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PostSubject: Re: Bitis parviocula offspring   Wed 10 Mar - 5:44

James Mintram wrote:
That clears that up! Smile

Thanks for coming over and discussing it Al.

It's been cleared up since 2008. Thanks for making sure it was clear James.
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