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 Small black Vipera aspis atra

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Grégoire Meier
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PostSubject: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Wed 15 Apr - 18:34

Lately I have observe this viper.
Particular because long only 20 cms and almost black totalmet!







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Rob Deans
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Wed 15 Apr - 19:38

Is this in situ? Do you see it more than once?
Very nice.
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Grégoire Meier
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Wed 15 Apr - 20:47

Yes is in situ!
I want to return to see it after the shed.
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Thu 16 Apr - 17:27

As a rule, these vipers are born "normal" colored, and some of'em turn into
black within their firs two to three years.
But no rule without exception,
as we all know. I once found a jet black juvenile in the Simme Valley in "Berner
Oberland" and STEMMLER (1968) reported a newborn, black common adder (Vipera berus).
by the way: According to
GOLAY et al. (2008) and URSENBACHER et al. (2006), Vipera aspis atra should no longer be regarded
as valid subspecies. Due to the results of DNA sequence data and very poor
morphological differences between "atra" and the nominotype, it has been
synonymized with Vipera aspis aspis by
these authors.

Kind regards
Peter

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Grégoire Meier
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Thu 16 Apr - 19:23

Yes this Vipera aspis aspis variant atra Wink is one exception that confirmation the rule!
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Fabian Dirks
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Thu 16 Apr - 20:43

Long time ago we found a Vipera aspis atra or V. aspis aspis "black" adult at "Nockalmstaße" dead on the street.

RGDS Fabian
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Thu 16 Apr - 22:08

There are no Vipera aspis at "Nockalmstrasse" in Carinthia, Fabian.
I'm living here, You must have seen a Vipera berus.

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Fabian Dirks
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Thu 16 Apr - 23:22

Long time of "Irrglaube".
I found that specimen at I was 10 years old, and this a long time ago. Somebody has told us that it was V.aspis
After your post I read some paper, that there aren´t any V.aspis in Austria,right?
That I really didn´t recordnized, until yet

Thank you Peter.

RGDS Fabian
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Fri 17 Apr - 16:42

Reading some more papers dealing with the taxonomy of Vipera aspis wasn't very helpful and led me to some confusion....

By the way, thanks to our member Mario Schweiger for his excellent literature database!

Strange enough, one of the co-authors of the 2006 paper by URSENBACHER et al. and the 2008 paper by GOLAY et al., M. ZUFFI, has published "A critique of the systematic position of the asp viper subspecies" in 2002. He found statistically significant morphological (scale countings and hemipenes structure) differences allowing to separate Vipera a. atra clearly from the nominotype.
He proposed to elevate atra (beside zinnikeri and hugyi) into species level, and to synonymize francisciredi with Vipera a. aspis, leaving the latter as monotypic species.
What could be the reason for these contrary views? Just differences between morphological and genetic methods or different "persuasions"?
Fact is: I'm very confused, and following COGGER, who said "taxonomy is a matter of personal opinion", I'll keep Vipera aspis atra upright as a subspecies until further work is done and clearness has taken place (might be sometime or never Sad )

Cheers
Peter

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Bartholin Yann
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Sat 18 Apr - 1:49

i live in zinnikeri area in south france, here we can see also black specimens, and a friend of mine have 2.2 pair of black zinnikeri, when they born they have classic color pattern, very recognisable, and became black between the second and third year.
we have ten female waiting for delivery in august.
zinnikeri are very beautiful vipers my second favorite behind the hugyi, some of them are black and it's only bonus
best regards
Yann
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Peter Zürcher
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Sat 18 Apr - 17:12

How about some pictures of your zinnikeri-collection, Bartholin?
Cheers
Peter

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Mario Schweiger
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Sun 19 Apr - 15:35

@ Peter

In 2003 (SEH Congress in St. Leninbourg) S. Ursenbacher, A. Conelli, P. Golay, J.-C. Monney, M. A. L. Zuffi, G. Thiery, T. Durand, L. Fumagalli showed a poster: Intraspecific Phylogeography of the Asp Viper (Vipera aspis) Inferred from Mitochondrial DNA: Preliminary Results, where they synonymized atra with the nominoform.

Their results I can comprehend. It must have been much to cool (cold) for Aspis during the glacials in central Europe, especially in the mountains (alps). Their must have been 2 refugia at least: one in southern France/Spain and one in Italy. And the time after the glacial is much to short to evolute different ssp. (like "our" Vipera amm. gregorwallneri and V.a.ruffoi).

This poster is in my database.
Peter, thanks for the

Mario
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Rainer Fesser
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Mon 20 Apr - 2:14

Hello Grégoire,

back to YOUR topic: If you have the chance to see that animal again and take some fotos, - I would be happy if you would post them (may be with some others taken in nature). No matter what the name is, it is a beautiful animal. And beautiful fotos.

Rainer
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Grégoire Meier
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Tue 21 Apr - 0:21

Thank You!
between two weeks return on the place in order to try to find again it…
Greg
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Grégoire Meier
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PostSubject: Re: Small black Vipera aspis atra   Tue 5 May - 17:11

I have not found again the individual anymore...
In the same zone I have observed:

Female




Male



Greg
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